Preventing stairs cheating

[Shoob]

I would do it this way *IF* I would do it at all:

monsters follow you if their speed is greater than or equal to yours, but even if they follow you, you still have a percent to lose them (based on your cunning and dex vs (their speed - your speed) and their dex)

I do not recommend having to have full hp, or no monsters in sight, because that is severely limiting, and would throw people off of this game.

I personally dont think this is stairs cheating because there are not many cases that you actually get to abuse it much, plus for quite a few characters quite a few ideas in here is basically a death sentence, but they can do nothing about it. and this does not make the game fun, but rather penalizes the player heavily. At least I dont use this, and dont really ever see the need to use it.

for example,

An adventurer without phase door/teleport deserves to be eliminated.

with scrolls of teleport/phase door, it doesnt help very much because all it does is move the adventurer away from his means of escape, but what now? there are now monsters wandering around giving targets to other monsters, who on seeing you will create a worse problem because you no longer have a way out.

basically also with phase door and teleport and enemies detection, these are all rather expensive, and not worth the effort buying for the normal adventurer, plus there are certain classes that cannot use them either.

[Burb Lulls]

I repeat that currently if Bob reaches the stairs and the monster cannot kill Bob in one turn, then monster HP, Bob's own attack, and everything else is completely irrelevant except as determining how many times Bob will have to stair cheat before killing the stairs halting monster.

Oh, you meant it as in "so he can hop in and out of the level and plink the wyrm to death" rather than "stop him reaching the stairs at all". I misunderstood, sorry . In this example, the player controlling Bob was just concentrating on getting out of the level alive, not getting through it no matter how much scumming it required; after all, a wyrm can summon drakes which can summon hatchlings as well as dole out pain. If he did try to stair-scum his way through the wyrm and its soon-to-be-summoned minions, he'd be stair-hopping for a long time - forever maybe, if enough drakes show up. He'd be scuppered either way if he was a summoner.

Yes, obviously this would make the game more difficult for those using stair cheating constantly. Maybe you will have to hang around somewhat longer on lower levels and explore more carefully in order to find or buy more items such as detection items or better elemental resists before going deeper. Maybe you simply have to be more careful instead of charging straight on as quickly as possible. Most likely not a bad thing. Strategy and caution instead of mindless stair cheating for most supposedly "hard" monsters is most likely more enjoyable.

Replace stair-scumming for level-scumming, then? Are their characters out there without sensing capabilities who really carry masses of enemy detection scrolls, using them as often as an archmage uses sense? ... Seriously? And Bob was being careful. Between fighting a futile battle with the wyrm, teleporting into unknown territory or fleeing, fleeing was the smartest choice. Remember, the main exploit we're trying to fix is stair-scumming, not plain running.

I also repeat that being in a situation where a monster can blast you twice in a long corridor is not something unique for a corridor close to stairs so Bob's problem could have happened anywhere regardless of how stairs function.

If this situation happened in the middle of a level, phasing would be a more viable alternative. When faced with a truly powerful enemy who I thought seriously risked my character's life by being on the same level as it, my top priority would be - you guessed it - getting off the level.

If you're in enough trouble to be fleeing, you're either injured or have enemies on your tail. Combat/HP denying the use of stairs would punish cowards (a legitimate strategy ) far more than stair-scummers. NPCs following you off the level would solve stair-scumming similarly, and treat cowards to a long and, dare I say, enjoyable dungeon-wide flight until they can turn the tide of the battle, shake their pursuers with teleportation/speed, or leave the dungeon entirely. I think enemies leaving you alone once you've left the dungeon completely could be a small concession to players: After all, an enemy would be more likely to chase you if you just went down a flight of stairs, not if you ran screaming into the sunset entirely, and if you have to stair-scum on the very first level of a dungeon... what are you doing there?

Edit: Just noticed Shoob's idea after posting:

monsters follow you if their speed is greater than or equal to yours, but even if they follow you, you still have a percent to lose them (based on your cunning and dex vs (their speed - your speed) and their dex)

This seems nice - a cunning rogue would be better at giving enemies the slip rather than a romping, stomping fighter.

[Mithril]

I would do it this way *IF* I would do it at all:

monsters follow you if their speed is greater than or equal to yours, but even if they follow you, you still have a percent to lose them (based on your cunning and dex vs (their speed - your speed) and their dex)

I do not recommend having to have full hp, or no monsters in sight, because that is severely limiting, and would throw people off of this game.

I personally dont think this is stairs cheating because there are not many cases that you actually get to abuse it much, plus for quite a few characters quite a few ideas in here is basically a death sentence, but they can do nothing about it. and this does not make the game fun, but rather penalizes the player heavily. At least I dont use this, and dont really ever see the need to use it.

for example,

An adventurer without phase door/teleport deserves to be eliminated.

with scrolls of teleport/phase door, it doesnt help very much because all it does is move the adventurer away from his means of escape, but what now? there are now monsters wandering around giving targets to other monsters, who on seeing you will create a worse problem because you no longer have a way out.

basically also with phase door and teleport and enemies detection, these are all rather expensive, and not worth the effort buying for the normal adventurer, plus there are certain classes that cannot use them either.

Exactly what are the situations where preventing stair cheating would be a "death sentence" and such situations could not also happen without stair cheating?

I greatly disagree that there are only few situations where you can abuse stair cheating. Killing most bosses, really almost everything, is trivial and frankly extremely boring using stair cheating and you have stun resistance like fighters using shield wall. I know.

[Shoob]

where could it be a death sentence?

a few locations:
carn dum (very likely, esp surrounded by giants at the start)
any of the 4 prides.
tol falas (in a pit or gold vault)
caverns of osse
slime tunnels (maybe)

there are more, that could be but the top 7 would be the most common.

and really, if it is boring, dont do it, nothing is making you do it at all.

[Mithril]

I repeat that currently if Bob reaches the stairs and the monster cannot kill Bob in one turn, then monster HP, Bob's own attack, and everything else is completely irrelevant except as determining how many times Bob will have to stair cheat before killing the stairs halting monster.

Oh, you meant it as in "so he can hop in and out of the level and plink the wyrm to death" rather than "stop him reaching the stairs at all". I misunderstood, sorry . In this example, the player controlling Bob was just concentrating on getting out of the level alive, not getting through it no matter how much scumming it required; after all, a wyrm can summon drakes which can summon hatchlings as well as dole out pain. If he did try to stair-scum his way through the wyrm and its soon-to-be-summoned minions, he'd be stair-hopping for a long time - forever maybe, if enough drakes show up. He'd be scuppered either way if he was a summoner.

Yes, obviously this would make the game more difficult for those using stair cheating constantly. Maybe you will have to hang around somewhat longer on lower levels and explore more carefully in order to find or buy more items such as detection items or better elemental resists before going deeper. Maybe you simply have to be more careful instead of charging straight on as quickly as possible. Most likely not a bad thing. Strategy and caution instead of mindless stair cheating for most supposedly "hard" monsters is most likely more enjoyable.

Replace stair-scumming for level-scumming, then? Are their characters out there without sensing capabilities who really carry masses of enemy detection scrolls, using them as often as an archmage uses sense? ... Seriously? And Bob was being careful. Between fighting a futile battle with the wyrm, teleporting into unknown territory or fleeing, fleeing was the smartest choice. Remember, the main exploit we're trying to fix is stair-scumming, not plain running.

I also repeat that being in a situation where a monster can blast you twice in a long corridor is not something unique for a corridor close to stairs so Bob's problem could have happened anywhere regardless of how stairs function.

If this situation happened in the middle of a level, phasing would be a more viable alternative. When faced with a truly powerful enemy who I thought seriously risked my character's life by being on the same level as it, my top priority would be - you guessed it - getting off the level.

If you're in enough trouble to be fleeing, you're either injured or have enemies on your tail. Combat/HP denying the use of stairs would punish cowards (a legitimate strategy ) far more than stair-scummers. NPCs following you off the level would solve stair-scumming similarly, and treat cowards to a long and, dare I say, enjoyable dungeon-wide flight until they can turn the tide of the battle, shake their pursuers with teleportation/speed, or leave the dungeon entirely. I think enemies leaving you alone once you've left the dungeon completely could be a small concession to players: After all, an enemy would be more likely to chase you if you just went down a flight of stairs, not if you ran screaming into the sunset entirely, and if you have to stair-scum on the very first level of a dungeon... what are you doing there?

Nah, dragons do not summon dragons of equal strength anymore so usually it just a matter of time with stair cheating, rather quickly really in my experience. Obviously you will not stair cheat with a really, really out of depth monster that can kill you in a single turn. But then such monsters are instant death regardless of how stairs function.

I am not strongly attached to either of the proposed solutions to the stair cheating problem. Maybe "monsters uses stairs" is the best as you suggest. It is certainly the most realistic.

[Mithril]

where could it be a death sentence?

a few locations:
carn dum (very likely, esp surrounded by giants at the start)
any of the 4 prides.
tol falas (in a pit or gold vault)
caverns of osse
slime tunnels (maybe)

there are more, that could be but the top 7 would be the most common.

and really, if it is boring, dont do it, nothing is making you do it at all.

You may have missed that the No Combat/Max Stats suggestions would also include some type of safe entry such as no monster in sight of the stairs which would seems to invalidate your scenarios or at least make them less dangerous. Obviously with the Monsters Follow suggestion you can always use the stairs.

If cheating is very easy to do it is very hard to resist doing it. It will also turn away new players from the game since it is boringly easy using this strategy and does not seem to be a cheat but rather a built in game feature that one should use.

[Shoob]

even if no monsters are in sight of the stairs, the prides could easily become more deadly as they would be clustered elsewhere, so I am still opposed to no monsters in sight, but I am fine with adjacent monsters following you.

and right now my brain is off, so i am off for the night as well.

[yufra]

I am a fan of the potential dungeon-wide flight, or at least retreating one level back to a more defensible position. This is particularly an issue at lower levels where controlled phase door scrolls simply do not exist, and even if they do it requires someone to burn a scroll of magic mapping and monster detection after entering every level. Is that the safest way forward, yes. Is it the most fun? Maybe we are arguing different definitions of fun. If that is the case we should focus on brainstorming different ideas so DG has more selection to choose from. I'll try to summarize them here:

1. Restrict monster spawning near stairs (allowing player to prepare with magic mapping, etc).
2. Limit the condition under which stairs can be used.
3. Allow monsters to chase you up stairs.

There were variations of these general themes, but I'll focus on the macro level here.

[Mithril]

Allowing monsters to chase you up stairs seems to be the popular choice with strong resistance raised against blocking using stairs.

[yufra]

Allowing monsters to chase you up stairs seems to be the popular choice with strong resistance raised against blocking using stairs.

Popular amongst those posting in this thread, sure, but that doesn't mean that it is the right decision. The ToME project is definitely more of a benevolent dictatorship than a democracy and I was suggesting we do a bit of the leg work for DG and give him a nice variety of choices to select from.

[Mithril]

I think that those advocating against blocking stairs have raised some good points. You may need to use stairs in order to escape out of depth monsters. Low level character may not have resources for fleeing without using stairs. Some levels like the Orc Prides may need using stairs in order to be manageable. There may be some epic flights if a monster follows you across most of the dungeon. It is the most "realistic" monster and player behavior.

[PowerWyrm]

We should rephrase Bob's situation upon using stairs...

Code: Select all

########
#DDDDD@#
#DDDDDD#
#DDDDDD#
#######

There's no phase/teleport square available. Anything you will do next turn except using stairs is hopeless.

[teachu2die]

+1 vote for enemies following. maybe even just 'enemies have a % chance of successfully following' (based either on cunning/dex, monster class, and/or just a flat percentage) - this would make it quite feasible to run from that OOD greater multi-hued wyrm, but risky to repeatedly stair dance to kill a boss or something...
very against any blockage of stair use. i even don't like it that i can't use the stairs when i'm poisoned - it just seems odd and arbitrary, and is one more reason fighting snakes is more dangerous than fighting orcs or even dragons much of the time.

another option is to enforce some kind of quasi-"disconnected stairs" option, where changing levels places you in a somewhat random spot every time (and never on top of a staircase)

[Final Master]

I really don't see how this is a problem. It's just like when anyone 'cheats' using any other method, such as column dancing. If you have to have a physical deterrent in the game to prevent you from doing it (and you feel guilty about doing it), then you probably shouldn't be playing the game. If you do it, you do it. If you don't, you don't.

HOWEVER, if you HAVE to do it to play the game, and it's an issue with the game itself, then yes, the game needs to be changed to suit play that doesn't require this. NOT add a feature that punishes/negates the use of this 'tactic'. However, I really don't believe that this is an issue currently or ever in T4.

[Mithril]

I really don't see how this is a problem. It's just like when anyone 'cheats' using any other method, such as column dancing. If you have to have a physical deterrent in the game to prevent you from doing it (and you feel guilty about doing it), then you probably shouldn't be playing the game. If you do it, you do it. If you don't, you don't.

HOWEVER, if you HAVE to do it to play the game, and it's an issue with the game itself, then yes, the game needs to be changed to suit play that doesn't require this. NOT add a feature that punishes/negates the use of this 'tactic'. However, I really don't believe that this is an issue currently or ever in T4.

Using exactly the same argument one could equally well argue for that death should not be permanent, you should voluntarily quit yourself after receiving a "You died!" message, or that wizard mode commands should be accessible in the standard game version for everyone. If you cannot stop yourself from cheating using these then you should not be playing the game!

There are reasons against such reasoning. It IS easier to resist temptations if what is tempting is more difficult/inconvenient to do. Furthermore, if one is playing a game one naturally is trying to play as well as possible within the legitimate rules of the game. If there is no rule against stairs cheating then it is a legitimate game tactic. Furthermore, to many players that monsters stop pursuit if you use stairs is so noticeable so they likely think that this is a planned and deliberately implemented game feature which one should discover and use. That is, this not just something one could do, but this is a planned game feature that one is deliberately supposed to do. When then the game becomes trivially easy one concludes this is a boring game.