Analyzing The Alchemist Class

[HousePet]

Eh?
How does moving the point assigning from the golem to the alchemist's level up screen make Alchemist just another caster?
And how would it be a nerf? All I'm suggesting is having the one level up screen rather than two.
I'm not suggesting that nothing else be done.

[bpat]

I thought you were saying that Golem talents should be moved to the Alchemist but this causes Alchemist to have less free points because of having to put points in Golem talents as well. If you meant that Alchemist would still have Golem specific points but just have the levelup screen moved to Alchemist that would be fine. This would be a nerf since it would add a point sink. The Golem being a customizable unit is the biggest defining trait of Alchemist so I think it should stay.

[HousePet]

Ewww... Why would I suggest something so terrible?

Having all the Golem's talents granted by Alchemist talents isn't a nerf or removing customisation (though to be honest, what customisation anyway?).
Doing a copy-paste of the golem's categories to the Alchemist would be; but that is not the suggestion for that reason.

The idea is to still remove point sinks, add customisation and improve the class overall, but not have two level up screens and separate point pools for the Alchemist and the Golem.
This would make the interface a little simpler, avoid the existence of a Golem that isn't tied to the classes talents from skewing the balancing of the class talents, and allows for the player to choose exactly how much they want to invest and use their golem.

The alternative is having all the golem affecting talents on the golem's level up screen (and giving it more points as it levels).
This would create a problem with the balancing of the class, because you would get more points to invest that other classes, and means that Alchemist has an inherent bonus that no other class has and the only way to balance that would be to make either the golem or the actual alchemist crap.

[bpat]

Okay I misinterpreted that haha. I agree with your idea then. The difficulty will be in removing point sinks. Maybe merge Golem Power and Golem Resilience into one talent and Gem Golem and Runic Golem into another. Probably move these to generics as well since Alchemist has no good generic categories at the moment. First three Explosive Admixtures talents should be merged. Caustic Golem, Ice Armour, and Dynamic Recharge should be merged with their respective Infusions, and Flame Infusion should get a Golem buffer too.

[HousePet]

Was vaguely thinking Golemancy could be split into Martial and Arcane Golemancy, and fit the Golem's talents in them, so as to keep choice of what sort of golem you have.
Not sure about moving Golemancy to generic. Golems are very class orientated, and Alchemist having dodgy generic options doesn't seem like a good justification.

If the golem isn't going to have points to be spent, then we may as well give it +1 str, mag and con per level.
Golem Resilience is basically required regardless of golem flavour, so may as well just have the golem get 1 point in it every 10 levels.

Was going to put a rearranged golemancy talents list here, but I need to give it more thought first...

Two random things:
Was thinking it could be interesting to be able to sculpt your golem from different materials for different properties. Like metal for technique based effects, wood for nature based effects and something magicallish (maybe gemstones or precious metals?) for arcane based effects. Mechanically I was thinking you would distil down a certain number of items of the right material and tier, and shape them into an item for a special slot on the golem.

Secondly, I have totally been thinking about a Necrochemist class...

[HousePet]

Done a quick golem category melting pot.

Martial Golemancy
Martial Golem: Attack and Mastery. Grants golem Knockback: Rush and knockback attack.
Invoke Golem: Recalls golem to you and melee buffs it.
Golem Combat: Grants golem Taunt and Crush.
Artificial Life: Increases golem max life and healing factor. Activate to transfer life from the golem to you.

Arcane Golemancy
Arcane Golem: Increases golem's rune strength. Grants golem Eye Beam: Fire, Lightning or Cold beam.
Golem Portal: Switch place and grants you a damage shield.
Golem Magic: Grants golem Reflective Skin and Arcane Pull.
Supercharge Golem: Spawns and regens/damage buffs golem.

Advanced Golemancy - High level and locked.
???
Move the 'effect when your bomb hits golem' talents to this slot?
Battle Golem: Grants golem Pound and Molten Skin.
Advanced Golemcraft: Combination of Gem Golem and Runic Golem.

[Davion Fuxa]

Okay I misinterpreted that haha. I agree with your idea then. The difficulty will be in removing point sinks. Maybe merge Golem Power and Golem Resilience into one talent and Gem Golem and Runic Golem into another. Probably move these to generics as well since Alchemist has no good generic categories at the moment. First three Explosive Admixtures talents should be merged. Caustic Golem, Ice Armour, and Dynamic Recharge should be merged with their respective Infusions, and Flame Infusion should get a Golem buffer too.

I wouldn't necessarily be against merging the Bomb Talents, but I think it would result in the creation of a talent that is simply too powerful for an unlocked category - and Alchemists throwing bombs is a key aspect of the class along with their Golem. That's why I opted to split Throw Bombs effects across multiple talents in a single category; which would still result in some point sink, but not as much as before.

Done a quick golem category melting pot.

Martial Golemancy
Martial Golem: Attack and Mastery. Grants golem Knockback: Rush and knockback attack.
Invoke Golem: Recalls golem to you and melee buffs it.
Golem Combat: Grants golem Taunt and Crush.
Artificial Life: Increases golem max life and healing factor. Activate to transfer life from the golem to you.

Arcane Golemancy
Arcane Golem: Increases golem's rune strength. Grants golem Eye Beam: Fire, Lightning or Cold beam.
Golem Portal: Switch place and grants you a damage shield.
Golem Magic: Grants golem Reflective Skin and Arcane Pull.
Supercharge Golem: Spawns and regens/damage buffs golem.

Advanced Golemancy - High level and locked.
???
Move the 'effect when your bomb hits golem' talents to this slot?
Battle Golem: Grants golem Pound and Molten Skin.
Advanced Golemcraft: Combination of Gem Golem and Runic Golem.

This looks like a really good model for helping to condense the Golem's talents, and in general I like the overall idea of moving everything solely to the Alchemists screen - since Golem's are essentially a moving part of the Alchemist class.

I'd maybe try to keep everything within 8 talents though for Golems - possibly removing Golem Portal and putting Advanced Golemcraft there, throwing out the ideas revolving around Life Tap and moving Battle Golem to Artificial Life with the increased life and healing factor. No Golem Categories would be locked.

To make up for Life Tap, more new talents could be thrown in to buff up Alchemists on the Defensive (which they really need anyways).

[HousePet]

Only having two categories feels a bit limiting. It is supposed to be a core feature of the class. Although you could salt some other categories with golem affecting talents.
I went with that layout to retain some choice in golem speccing and have some optional investment.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'd probably go with trying to incorporate Golem affecting talents in other categories myself - sort of like keeping the Throw Bomb aspect that effects Golems with the Throw Bomb talents and doing the same for any new talents.

[HousePet]

Finally got around to reading through this thread in detail.
A few random thoughts:
Shockwave Bomb (or whatever) should stun instead of knockback.
Blunt Thrust should knockback and daze instead of stun.
Remove the need to target a wall with Gem Portal, just have it try to move you X tiles in the direction you choose.

I'm not convinced about having a single talent to grant 4 different infusion talents and removing damage type categories. While it looks like it solves the issue of only investing in one element, it doesn't actually give you much reason to use more than one infusion, and with the exception of Alchemical Mixtures, still sort of locks out other damage types.
I also feel it is a bit worse than the current situation as it reduces the scope of specialising in a particular element flavour.

An idea to make the individual Infusion talents better is to make the damage bonus passive instead of requiring the sustain active, adding an equal resistance bonus, and sharing both effects with the Golem as well. Then it wouldn't matter as much that you can't have more than one active at once.

[Davion Fuxa]

I realize that certain elements (Lightning and Acid specifically) are going to be quite strong since little will resist those elements, however, your Golem 'will' get different benefits which is primarily where the use of Throw Bombs will come from. If that isn't enough then the individual effects can be changed - maybe with the Fire Infusion inflicting Flameshock and Ice Infusion inflicting Slow. As for specializing that is a loss - but then it is also a plus that the Alchemist doesn't have to be restricted to specific damage types - they can use all of them quite effectively.

To get the best of both worlds - it might make sense to simply just take the Alchemical Mixtures and break them into multiple categories specific to each element or dual elements; perhaps locking them all and bolstering their effects to be quite powerful while keeping the generic Throw Bomb.

Also to make a note of it: it isn't 1 Talent to replace four other Talents, its 4 Talents all in one Category and the Alchemist Fatigues talent to replace 10 Talents in multiple Categories. If that one specific talent seems too powerful then it can be weakened while anyone (or all three) of the other talents can be strengthened.

[HousePet]

I realised that Alchemical Mixtures was 4 different talents.
Not sure why you mentioned Alchemist's Fatigues? Nor am I sure which 10 talents it replaces. Perhaps you meant Alchemist Techniques? I don't mind that category much. Although Alchemist's Fatigues seems a little off in that you can put one point in it straight away to stop your own talents hitting you. May as well just make them not hit you at all.
Or maybe change it to a reduced self damage, and then make Alchemic Coating give you a buff like the golem gets for being hit by a bomb? Could work nicely with the affinity from Elemental Body... Although you then have two sources of element based buff sets, which is a bit overlappy. Hrm, Elemental Storm and the Fire Elemental Body are quite similar as well. Unless you were intending on having people mix up which elements they are using, you could just merge the two?

PS: Why do Alchemists have lightning but not poison?

[Davion Fuxa]

Alchemist Fatigues is meant to be an automatically granted talent that you can't un-invest, that from the one initially point will replace Alchemists Protection - and protect you from anything else you you might do that could damage you. While it doesn't grant any protection to your Golem, Coat Golem will cover it from that angle.

As for the Explosive Admixture Talents, Throw Bomb is more or less the same as it was, Elemental Infusion replaces the Flame/Acid/Frost/Lightning Infusions, Cost Golem replaces Caustic Golem/Ice Armor/Dynamic Recharge, and Explosion Expert is more or less the same as it was.

In regards to the Alchemist Fatigues talent, I based it off the idea that all Alchemists have their 'signature' clothing to protect themselves from their own alchemy; derived from Agrimley's dialogue with the player when he goes to cook up one of his potions for you. If you have ideas for changing the talent around then by all means; I personally went for the immunity to Alchemist talents thing because that's what Agrimley's Cloak for or less did for him - then I made the talent also negate enemy spells to make it worth investing past the initial point.

In regards to the Elemental Storm/Elemental Body Infusion, they were meant to be replacements for Fire Storm and Body for Fire/Ice Core/Living Lightning. Elemental Storm was meant to be a sort of 'offensive' talent that could be used either to damage enemies around you - or perhaps damage enemies around a specific ally or damage a specific enemy and those around it. The idea was that at level 2 onward you could target it - probably against anything in your characters Line of Sight. The Elemental Body Infusion was meant to be a 'defensive' talent, bolstering your characters defenses and abilities.

I don't know why Alchemists don't have poison. I suppose that could be yet another idea to pursue for more talents that Alchemists could have.