Buffing bad prodigies

[bpat]

Also can I suggest taking a look at some of the prodigy unlock requirements? Nearly anything with damage requirements or spell casting can be farmed immediately, prodigies like cauterize and windblade might as well not have any requirements at all.

This is a good point. Bloodspring is probably the biggest offender in AoA, but it's unfortunate that many prodigies are simply unavailable in EoR. I don't have any suggestions for these currently though.

\Through the Crowd: Saves and free movement while surrounded... By allies. Maybe make it so that using the talent would let you swap with an enemy as well and gain like... 3 free moves or so?

Armour of Shadows (might just be because it's such a niche prodigy, like Hidden Resources): does it give armor hardiness as well? It should, if it doesn't already.

Mystical Cunning (super niche, really only rogues): Only fits a few classes and none of those classes build spellpower and I'm pretty sure the trap/poison scale off spellpower.

Interesting idea for Through the Crowd, pretty different from mine but worth discussing too. Armour of Shadows gives 50% hardiness. Mystical Cunning's traps and poisons scale with Cunning, perhaps they should scale with spellpower but that'd be a nerf.

corrupted shell(give +4 hp per con on top of base 250 AND armor equal to bonus saves)
armor of shadows(add darkness damage thorns equal to con and damage avoidance equal to con/10 both when on an unlit tile)
tricky defenses(needs the effects doubled and equilbrium gain from AM shield halved)
secrets of telos(needs another permanent benefit, not sure what)
roll with it(not sure what to do here), bpat's suggestion works if toned down though I guess
aether permeation(needs to stop overwriting otherwise higher resistances)
meteoric crash(needs cooldown lowered to 8 or 10)
garkul's revenge(needs a chance on melee hit to summon his spirit as per the garkul's items set bonus, stacks with it)
lucky day(permanently gain 30% evasion and projectile deflection), but bpat's suggestion works there too
unbreakable will(needs to act like ward, except for mental debuffs only, and stack the ward up to two, refreshing one every 7 turns)
endless woes(mind confusion needs to scale with cunning)
blighted summoning(needs to add your magic stat to shadows and twice if not thrice your magic stat to summoner's summons)

Corrupted Shell: Might be too good but I like the concept. Maybe tone down the numbers then.
Tricky Defenses: Something like that yeah, probably still pretty bad but that's because Antimagic Shield is bad.
Aether Permeation: Yeah but it just won't buff very many then since arcane resist is the rarest I believe.
Meteoric Crash: Also a good idea, I don't really have any clue how to buff it since I think it's fundamentally flawed. Also could maybe be a sustain instead of passive to stop blowing up walls.
Garkul's Revenge: Awesome idea, better than my idea.
Lucky Day: That could also work. Also Shibari suggested maybe make it give crit immunity instead of evade chance.
Unbreakable Will: Still way worse than Draconic Will.
Endless Woes: Still probably too weak.
Blighted Summoning: That could work instead of my suggestion.

My number one problem of mystical cunning is that it is way to niche with its know class talent requirement.

How about adding one more benefit that is tied to survival generic talent tree somehow?

It will fit "good for rogues" theme but just any other class will be able to take it and benefit from its third effect.

Some effect tied to charm mastery talent may be interesting (Giving spellpower based +% effect to wand effects? Instant ability to reset cooldown(s) of charms with its cooldown being tied to effective level of charm mastery?)

I really like the idea of it buffing charms with your spellpower somehow, but I can't think of anything specific. I still think it needs to let you use a third poison though, since Crippling and Numbing Poisons are too good to skip.

[ibanix]

Your core idea is "every prodigy should be useful to an equal degree" (or, alternately, "useful at my level of play").

I don't think DarkGod carries this philosophy, which is good, since he's writing the game.

[HousePet]

Okay, we have at least got some sort of reasoning as to why you think a prodigy is weak. This is an improvement.

However, just saying that X is worse than Y, isn't helping much. Especially when one is Temporal Form and the other is nothing like it.

Massive Blow and YSBMW: You shouldn't be able to take Winblade instead really. Also nerf Winblade.

Giant Leap: Would be good for Undead, as you can't do it with a Rune.

Meteoric Crash: 3 turns is a weak stun for a prodigy compare to what other prodigy?

Unbreakable Will protects you when you need it. Draconic Will on autocast only works for a third of the time.

Requires you to be Antimagic is not justification for saying something is bad. Would you say Fungus is bad?

[bpat]

Your core idea is "every prodigy should be useful to an equal degree" (or, alternately, "useful at my level of play").

I don't think DarkGod carries this philosophy, which is good, since he's writing the game.

My core idea is "every prodigy should be useful", without the second half of that quote. I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth. It has become very clear that you have no intention of discussing (or apparently even reading) my suggestions, so please do not post on this thread further unless it relates directly to the actual suggestions presented.

Okay, we have at least got some sort of reasoning as to why you think a prodigy is weak. This is an improvement.

However, just saying that X is worse than Y, isn't helping much. Especially when one is Temporal Form and the other is nothing like it.

Massive Blow and YSBMW: You shouldn't be able to take Winblade instead really. Also nerf Winblade.

Giant Leap: Would be good for Undead, as you can't do it with a Rune.

Meteoric Crash: 3 turns is a weak stun for a prodigy compare to what other prodigy?

Unbreakable Will protects you when you need it. Draconic Will on autocast only works for a third of the time.

Requires you to be Antimagic is not justification for saying something is bad. Would you say Fungus is bad?

I compare things that boost damage to Temporal Form because Temporal Form does that better while providing some nice utility.

Massive Blow knocks the enemy away which is what you don't want to happen as a melee class, and it can be resisted iirc which is silly for a prodigy. YSBMW has a similar issue plus a troublesome size requirement, but it's less bad probably. Windblade doesn't need nerfs since it's usually worse than Flexible Combat, it's in a good spot overall. Among the prodigies I consider good, it's probably on the weaker end. For what it's worth, I have never used it since I value defense and Flexible Combat more. Windblade can be changed to be used only with dual weapons and that's fine with me, I was surprised when I learned it wasn't already that way.

20 turn cooldown vs <10 turn cooldown Controlled Phase Door makes Giant Leap seem weak. Prodigies should be better than Inscriptions. Also I can't think of a class that would want Rush but doesn't have Rush besides maybe Rogue, which has Nimble Movements and should unlock Combat Techniques anyway. Only other class I can think of is Reaver but Bone Grab is better for initiating and Dark Portal does the job for mobility.

Meteoric Crash can be compared to Vital Shot which stuns and cripples for five turns with less cooldown. Its bigger issue is that it blows up walls so maybe it should be a sustain instead. Also if it can't crit, it should be able to crit. I haven't checked.

Unbreakable Will goes on cooldown immediately when against a Corruptor, Solipsist, Doomed, etc. It blocks Pacification Hex then lets you get hit by Burning Hex. It blocks confuse or brainlock then lets Inner Demons through. Draconic Will keeps you safe for the first five turns of a fight, at which point control abilities are already used and on cooldown more often that not. Draconic Will lasts a third of the time, but against mental debuffers Unbreakable Will will last a turn or two before starting that long seven turn cooldown. I've probably taken Draconic Will on way more characters than most people would and I find it to do an excellent job of dealing with debuffs. Also you don't need to autocast Draconic Will (I don't), and it's usually easy to predict when you'll need it to block mental debuffs (Solipsist and Nightmare Horror in range 7, Corruptor/Reaver after using relatively harmless Pacification Hex, Doomed in range 8, Dreaming Horror immediately or range 7 when already asleep).

I would say Fungus is not worth going Antimagic for. I think Antimagic is always the wrong choice. However this is a controversial opinion so I also gave other reasons why I think the prodigies are bad (Spell Feedback is overkill against mages, Tricky Defenses doesn't do enough because Antimagic Shield is not good). If Spell Feedback wasn't tied to Antimagic, it'd actually be rather good!

[HousePet]

Vital Shot is vastly different to Meteoric Crash. I don't think it is sensible to make a comparison there. Same for Windblade versus Flexible Combat.

Unbreakable Will only goes on cooldown if you fail to resist. It also doesn't require you to pre use it. So its good for when you walk around a corner. Useful in different circumstances, also available earlier. It could use a tweak though.

[bpat]

Vital Shot is vastly different to Meteoric Crash. I don't think it is sensible to make a comparison there. Same for Windblade versus Flexible Combat.

Unbreakable Will only goes on cooldown if you fail to resist. It also doesn't require you to pre use it. So its good for when you walk around a corner. Useful in different circumstances, also available earlier. It could use a tweak though.

Yeah you're right they aren't the best comparisons. I'm not trying to compare their use but rather their power. Meteoric Crash doesn't do enough imo to be worth a prodigy point, it does several things but doesn't do any of them well.

I'm not trying to say there isn't a situation Unbreakable Will will be good in, but it is certainly not up to par with other prodigies regardless. There are times I would have like to have it but that doesn't make me regret picking other prodigies. Perhaps a better comparison would be to Spine of the World, which is a very strong defensive prodigy.

[Parcae2]

My personal opinions (biased, like bpat's, towards higher-level play):

1. ICCTW: I've considered taking this for the fatigue removal on a heavy-armor PM. I'm not saying it's good, but there are worse prodigies.

2. Massive Blow: All of the damage prodigies suffer from the fact that this is a roguelike and optimal prodigy selection should always be focused on defense. Adding some defensive utility to the damage prodigies is the only way to fix this. Increasing damage mods will only make them more dangerous on AI opponents.

(Also, all the damage prodigies are variants of "You hit the thing REALLY HARD," which is boring.)

3. You Shall Be My Weapon: See Massive Blow.

4. Automated Reflex System: It only deals with bolt attacks, and it doesn't even protect you from them very well. It would be weak with a cooldown of 3; heck, it would be weak with no cooldown. It's basically a weaker version of a generic talent that very few characters take.

5. Giant Leap: A prodigy point for an inferior version of Rush is ... not good.

6. Roll With It: It's a neat concept, but it's very situational and messes with your tactical positioning.

7. Through the Crowd: A prodigy that only helps you when you're surrounded by allies? No.

8. Windtouched Speed: Most characters can't take it and the ones who can have better uses for a prodigy than a small boost to global speed.

9. Armour of Shadows: It's a really neat concept but the bonuses aren't enough to justify taking it. This one needs tweaking more than a complete rework.

10. Bloodspring: Another damage prodigy. See Massive Blow.

11. Corrupted Shell: A bit more life is not enough to make much of a difference to most characters. Consider that 250 is the difference between a good roll and a bad one on a high-level heroism infusion.

12. Draconic Body: It's one-shot protection, but it's worse at its only job than Cauterize, so there's no reason to take it.

13. Eternal Guard: This is the only area where I disagree with bpat completely. Eternal Guard is incredible on lower difficulties and still has a niche use on higher difficulties. There's really no situation where 300 reduction to a bunch of different damage types is bad. The real problem here is that block is so useless without prodigy investment that block-dependent classes (like Demonologist) struggle massively to get to 30.

14. Never Stop Running: Just too situational. Escaping-danger prodigies aren't as bad as damage prodigies, but you still need to wonder who's taking them when prodigies like Cauterize are out there.

15. Aether Permeation: Too many enemies have resist penetration.

16. Arcane Amplification Drone: Another damage prodigy.

17. Blighted Summoning: I disagree with bpat a bit on this one. It's great on Oozemancer. For other classes ... yeah, it doesn't really have any particular selling point.

18. Mystical Cunning: Waaaaaaaaaaay too niche.

19. Revisionist History: Boring and grindy to use.

20. Spectral Shield: Again, I disagree with bpat about the utility of block in general, but Spectral Shield is still bad because you can just take Swift Hands and swap shields as needed.

21. Temporal Form: Basically a damage prodigy with a bit of utility, but not enough to salvage it.

22. Garkul's Revenge: Another damage prodigy, and a really lousy one at that.

23. Lucky Day: Luck used to be more useful to stealth classes. Now it's basically just 12% crit chance, and crit chance is pretty easy to max without wasting a prodigy.

24. Meteoric Crash: Another damage prodigy.

25. Range Amplification Device: Great for Psyshots and maybe Doomed, and literally no one else. There just aren't enough mid-range casters in the game to make this prodigy widely useful. That said, not every prodigy has to be useful to everyone, and this one is good enough for Psyshots (+3 range for Harassed!) that it would be at the bottom of my list of prodigies to buff, with Eternal Guard.

26. Spell Feedback: Bpat is on the money when he says that it's impossible to make this good on players without making it horribly overpowered on AI. Maybe if it were targeted, and not limited to AM...

27. Unbreakable Will: Eh. Not the worst prodigy, but Wintertide Phial is a thing that exists.

28. Elemental Surge: The lightning effect is the only useful one, and not enough classes benefit from it, especially given the cooldown.

29. Endless Woes: Another damage prodigy.

30. Fast as Lightning: Really, really situational.

31. Secrets of Telos: This does not need to be buffed, at all. The life leech on the activatable power makes this one of the best prodigies in the game, to the point that it might actually need a nerf. The problem is that the blasted thing is impossible to find...

32. Tricks of the Trade: What bpat said. Needs to be part of a general stealth/invisibility rework.

33. Tricky Defenses: A slight boost to a mediocre talent still leaves it mediocre. This one isn't the worst offender on the list, though; one could at least argue that it works better on lower difficulty levels, which is not the case for, to take an example at random, Lucky Day.

34. Worldly Knowledge: Spending a prodigy point to compensate for being unlucky early in the game is a bad idea. This speaks to a fundamental principle of design philosophy: AoA is really, really long for a roguelike, so any variation early in the game should be smoothed out later, not amplified. Otherwise you have people spending 20 hours being gimped by random stuff from the first 5. At that point it's easier just to restart. (Also, this prodigy, or whatever replaces it, should include the tinker trees).

[Parcae2]

Perhaps the best approach is to start by narrowing down the list to, say, a top 10 of prodigies that need buffing? Then we could look at elements of overlap, narrow it down to a top 5, and start a new thread for those prodigies.

My 10 would be:

Automated Reflex System

Giant Leap

Windtouched Speed

Armor of Shadows

Bloodspring

Draconic Body/Cauterize (because a Cauterize nerf might need to complement the Draconic Body buff)

Garkul's Revenge

Lucky Day

Endless Woes

Worldly Knowledge

I left out Mystical Cunning and Tricks of the Trade because they're awful but need to be part of a broader rogue/shadowblade rework.

[bpat]

Great post Parcae. One thing I disagree with is Bloodspring being a damage prodigy, when really it's a healing prodigy. It's like a slower but potentially better Draconic Body that also damages enemies, provided enemies are in range. Speaking of its range, how much range does it have? I also am not sure if the damage listed is per turn or over the duration, its tooltip is rather confusing. Shibari seems convinced that it's pretty underrated, though I have never taken it myself because I refuse to do the Dark Crypt on Insane (perhaps this requirement also be looked at).

I don't think a Cauterize nerf is needed at all. Cauterize is a great but somewhat overrated prodigy now that one turn kills aren't as common as they once were. It's still well above average but it's in a good spot in my opinion.

Here's my top 10 list of ones that could use buffs without changing other mechanics. I didn't list any damage ones because I don't have any interesting ideas for buffing them, or really see a point because they'll probably never be good. If your list was of the 10 worst, I think you underrate a few, specifically Bloodspring and Draconic Body. Those two are very close to being viable imo, though I'm not actually to sure about Bloodspring because I don't even know how it works exactly and I'll never take it anyway unless the requirement is changed.

1) Through the Crowd

2) Fast as Lightning

3) Lucky Day

4) Automated Reflex Defense

5) Garkul's Revenge

6) Unbreakable Will

7) Endless Woes

Elemental Surge (package deal with Endless Woes imo)

9) Aether Permeation

10) Giant Leap

[HousePet]

Through the Crowd: Add the ability to projectile past allies and not hurt allies with mass attacks.
May not be enough, but could still be quite good.

Fast as Lightning: Lightning damage in a radius of 1 when you are moving above a certain speed.
While this effect was removed from other talents, as a prodigy it might be okay.

Lucky Day: Need to make the Luck stat more useful first. Increasing its effect on hitting self with spells and how it interacts with Stealth would be a good start.

Unbreakable Will: +20 mind save.
Its a little boring, but it would fit well.

Endless Woes: Increase powers for checks when applying debuffs. Drop the other stuff/merge into Elemental Surge.

Elemental Surge: Separate cooldowns for each element would make it more interesting. Or just no cooldown and make it random. Extend to all elements and have nicer effects.

Aether Permeation: Maybe change this to tie your life into your mana, sort of Solipsist like.
Alternatively, just buff it.

Giant Leap: Decrease cooldown. Maybe increase the radius to 2?
It is a perfect teleport, can be used as an escape and usable when surrounded. So it is far more functional than Rush.

Windtouched Speed: Add 20 defense?
If there are better prodigies than a permanent +20% global speed, maybe they are too good.

Armour of Shadows: Add saves? Change to flat damage reduction?

Bloodspring: I think this one might be underrated.

Worldly Knowledge: Increase the mastery of all your generic categories with mastery less than 1.2, to 1.2.

[Atarlost]

Careful of the high difficulty bias. It should be perfectly acceptable to have prodigies that are just fun or that are only good on normal and nightmare. Something bad and boring at every level like Lucky Day should be improved. Something fun like most of the actives or quality of life improving like unbreakable will has its place and is fine. If the statistics point to something being taken a lot it's presumably because it's either fun or good and either should be acceptable.

We can start worrying about universal prodigy viability on madness some time after every race/class combination has been won at least once. Working on the difficulties more people play is more important.

[Parcae2]

Alright, let's defer discussion of Unbreakable Will, Windtouched Speed and Bloodspring for a later time. Lucky Day should also be part of a more general Luck rework. That leaves:

Through the Crowd: Housepet, doesn't it already prevent friendly fire?

Fast as Lightning: Maybe a one-off lightning attack with life leech when moving at high speed, rather than constant lightning damage?

Endless Woes/Elemental Surge: Needs a complete rework.

Aether Permeation: I would just return it to the old 100% rather than 66% of arcane resist.

Giant Leap: Yeah cooldown reduction why not

Armor of Shadows: Activate to teleport to a darkened square? Vision of unlighted tiles?

Worldly Knowledge: I like bpat's suggestion for this one.

Garkul's Revenge: Garkul was basically known for fighting through anything, right? Maybe +x to the duration of timed effects when life drops below X? (With a fixed cooldown, of course)

Automated Reflex Defense: Bonus to dexterity that scales with steampower?

And I'll also throw in Secrets of Telos, because it seems like a fairly simple fix - just lower the material level or make the parts fixed drops. Again, it isn't actually weak at all (it might even need a nerf) - it's just really hard to get, especially on lower difficulties.

[bpat]

To address Atalost's concerns, that is pretty much why I didn't mention Steamroller at all (fun little prodigy that I never intend to use) and why I don't really care about buffing goofy stuff like YSBMW (it's weak but I don't really care if it's buffed or not). I think the only prodigies that are particularly good on low difficulties when bad on higher ones that I mentioned are EG and SS and I have no intention of having those changed, even though I think they are on the weak side. Buffing Unbreakable Will and similar won't be too good on lower difficulties so doing so is fine, while buffing EG/SS or Steamroller may be too good on Normal. Overbuffing is a legitimate concern, but I've been trying to be conservative with my buff suggestions and if you think a specific buff may be too much, I'd appreciate feedback. I made this thread because I thought a lot of prodigies have some wasted potential, and it'd be cool if they could get a chance to shine too.

I like the lightning damage burst idea for Fast as Lightning, but constant damage will be tough to balance, especially if it won't break Movement Infusions (which it should not do imo). I think a one-off damage + shock + daze could be good and fitting with other lightning talents. Maybe it could deal your movement speed as lightning damage (so 600% movespeed -> 600 lightning damage). Not sure how exactly it would trigger though.

Through the Crowd already protects against friendly fire and it's still bad, it needs way more. I liked the swap positions idea but there are other good solutions too I'm sure.

Endless Woes and Elemental Surge probably deserve a separate thread since they're really loaded.

Aether Permeation could use 100% of arcane resistance, and also not overwrite better resistances. Basically have all your resistances be increased to your arcane resistance if they're lower.

Giant Leap cooldown reduction would be good, 8 or lower cooldown would be good imo. I think the radius of 1 is fine, but increasing it to 2 with a milder cooldown reduction could work too. I favor leaving the radius at 1 and having it have a super low cooldown though.

Unbreakable Will giving 20 mental save isn't enough thanks to diminishing returns. Maybe when it's on cooldown you gain 100 mental save (raw not effective). This makes it so your free block won't be protected by the high saves, but when it's on cooldown you aren't completely vulnerable either. Alternatively it could just give like 20 Willpower instead of giving mental save, which would be cool on classes like Cursed that scale nicely with Willpower and can't afford to get confused often.

Armour of Shadows teleporting seems out of place. I think giving unlit vision is good (10 infravision does this) and also perhaps having a blind or evade chance or something.

For Garkul's Revenge I like the idea of buffing you when at low life. My idea is you can live at -500 life, and while below 0 life your healmod and global speed are increased by 50%. This may end up being super good so the 20% damage to humanoids can be nerfed to only include humans, halflings, and elves (the races Garkul fought iirc). Parcae's idea is cool but it kinda overlaps with Timeless and can make for some very dangerous combos, so it would have to be very carefully balanced.

[HousePet]

Garkul fought Orcs too.

[bpat]

Garkul fought Orcs too.

Yeah but he wouldn't want "revenge" on Orcs I think, mostly Halflings and such because those are the ones who brought him down.