Anorithil resource system

[grayswandir]

But, like I said, celestials generate energy completely differently from hate. I don't think that point is at all applicable. Unless afflicted also used to have a bunch of active hate-generating talents?

[Red]

The point is that you start off combat disadvantaged. Unless you use autocasting, you're going to start a fight with your most useful abilities unavailable to you. And I know you can draw similarities to a Barwler and their combo points here, but there's a key difference. The Brawler has a bunch of useful moves that build up combo points and then absolutely devastating finisher moves that consume them. The Anorithil, as it stands, has a bunch of bad moves that build up positive energy, a move that only transfers positive to negative energy, and then useful moves that use negative energy.

In flow chart form:

Brawler
Useful normal moves -> Devastating finisher moves.

Anorithil
Weak positive moves -> Twilight -> Useful moves.

If, like Housepet has suggested, Light moves were more useful, it'd solve a lot of complaints, since you start off strong instead of having to go through a weak grind to get your good moves out.

[Doctornull]

That's funny, we were just talking about a combo point type system for Light spells over on IRC.

[Red]

Whether or not that occurs, the main point is that the start of combat has to be better. An Anorithil is fine once you get the initial light spells out of the way, but that's a chore you have to do after every rest and should either be done away with or made better.

[donkatsu]

But, like I said, celestials generate energy completely differently from hate. I don't think that point is at all applicable. Unless afflicted also used to have a bunch of active hate-generating talents?

In both cases you would hit things to get resources, then spend those resources to hit things better, and lose resources really quickly when you're not hitting things. The latter part was the main issue if I recall correctly.

[grayswandir]

But, like I said, celestials generate energy completely differently from hate. I don't think that point is at all applicable. Unless afflicted also used to have a bunch of active hate-generating talents?

In both cases you would hit things to get resources, then spend those resources to hit things better, and lose resources really quickly when you're not hitting things. The latter part was the main issue if I recall correctly.

I don't really think that comparison is accurate. The main purpose of hate isn't really to spend it to hit things better - it's to build up a large amount. Most of the cursed actives deal at least double damage at full hate, while only costing 2 to 5 to use. Unlike positive/negative, where there's no benefit to having extra positive/negative past what you need to pay for talents, there's a lot of benefit to having extra hate. Having no hate leaves you severely weakened, while having no positive just means you have to cast barrier at the start of combat.

[Red]

Grayswandir, for me at least the issue isn't combat effectiveness. Anorithils are a fully competitive class, with a good amount of useful skills and the ability to kick ungodly levels of ass with Corona.

The issue is it's a class with a time-wasting mechanic built right in. I said it before, but each combat with an Anorithil (unless you autocast) is going to take at least three turns except against incredibly weak foes like mice. Even something as strong as a venus flytrap will take three turns, since you need one turn for positive energy, one for Twilight, and one to blast it with darkness. If I was an Archmage, my first hit would've been at range ten and killed it. If I was a Sun Paladin, I'd use Path of the Sun to rush over and stab it to death, or retreat if there was a rare or something around the corner. If I was an Archer, I'd shoot it. If I was a Beserker, I'd be an idiot and use Rush to save time because I'm impatient.

Point being, in all those combats against a singular venus flytrap, it took one turn, excepting the Sun Paladin. And in exchange for a two turn combat with Sun Paladin, I gain an automatic and perfectly effective escape so long as I look around the area before killing it. An Anorithil would take longer and just generally be less fun.

[grayswandir]

I never said I was against that. I'm all for giving them a strong nuke that generates energy to deal with weak trash. That and this are completely orthogonal.

[Red]

The main part, as donkatsu said, is that you lose your resources rapidly outside of combat. They play differently in combat (which is not something you see often in RPG resource systems. Props to DarkGod, because it's a cool idea that just needs more work), but outside they drop like a rock.

Unless you support the current resting point of point of positive and negative energy being 0, then there's no sense ragging on about the comparison. It's not perfect and clearly caused some confusion, but the point is that most people dislike having to charge the celestial batteries up at the start of every combat.

[grayswandir]

The main part, as donkatsu said, is that you lose your resources rapidly outside of combat. They play differently in combat (which is not something you see often in RPG resource systems. Props to DarkGod, because it's a cool idea that just needs more work), but outside they drop like a rock.

And I'm saying that the similarity is only superficial.

Unless you support the current resting point of point of positive and negative energy being 0, then there's no sense ragging on about the comparison.

I don't necessarily support it, but I do think it could be made to work, and I'd rather not have it be dismissed out of hand just because it sounds similar to something else people don't like. I'm "ragging on" about the comparison because I think it's relevant to the discussion.

It's not perfect and clearly caused some confusion, but the point is that most people dislike having to charge the celestial batteries up at the start of every combat.

Combo Points show that people in general don't dislike the concept of building up resources like that - it can be done correctly. Unless you're saying that brawlers need to run around with 5 combo points all the time, I don't see how you could possibly shoot down starting at 0 with that argument.

[Red]

I brought this up before. Getting to five combo points with a Brawler is fun-Spinning Backhand, Axe Kick, Flurry, Double Strike, all those moves are useful moves that can be incorporated into a fun strategy. More than that, they're perfectly capable of taking down normal foes, so combo points aren't needed.

On an Anorithil, the light skills are so weak that they're not fun to use. It's a neccessarry evil to build negative energy to take out foes. In addition to that, unlike Brawlers, their build-up moves are rarely capable of taking someone down, meaning you have to go through it every fight. It's fun to build up to a Haymaker when taking down a Bulwark/Sun Paladin rare who's got enough defenses to make Atamathon jealous. It's not as much fun to build up to a Moonlight Ray against a slimy ooze.

However, there are actually two main ways to fix that. One is what the OP suggested, a modified resource system, and the other was brought up by Housepet, buffing the light skills. Either would fix the issue, the first making negative energy skills available from the start, and the second making negative energy skills not required to take down trash monsters, only dificult ones.

Finally, apologies. That was some bad word choice on my part, and I meant no offense to you.

[grayswandir]

However, there are actually two main ways to fix that. One is what the OP suggested, a modified resource system, and the other was brought up by Housepet, buffing the light skills. Either would fix the issue, the first making negative energy skills available from the start, and the second making negative energy skills not required to take down trash monsters, only dificult ones.

I am aware. I've been reading the thread. I'm not sure why you keep pointing this out to me.

Edit: To clarify, I don't know see how that entire post, at all, has anything to do with my suggestion. Aside from how the luminosity thing, being a complete rework, would invalidate it.

[Red]

Because it seems like you're missing the point. Conceptualy, the Anorithil resource system is really cool. The issue is, as it's implemented now, the light half of it is just not very fun. In most cases, it's something you have to do to get what you want, rather than something you want to do because it's good strategy.

In addition, thoughts on tweaks for Anorithil skills to try to make the current system work.

Twilight: Make it an instant cast. All it does is manage resources, and since it's designed as a utility tool rather than a recovery tool like a Manasurge Rune, having it take a turn drags out fights more than they need to be.

Jumpgate, Mind Blast, and Shadow Simalacrum: Halve the negative costs and add in an equal amount of positive cost. This is Twilight, after all, not Darkness That Devours Light As Sustenance.

Searing Light: Make it range 10 and have it inflict DoT as on the initial target as well as leaving behind the spot of burning light.

Sun Flare: Buff damage considerably and give it a larger radius-6 should be appropiate since that's Anorithil's main combat distance. I'm thinking making it on par with Illuminate from the Phantasm tree is appropiate.

Firebeam: Make it half light damage, so you benefit from +Light. Possibly buff damage and add a DoT. It should be a viable damage talent, comparable and better than to Moonlight Ray since it is a third tier direct damage beam, whereas Moonlight Ray is a first tier direct damage beam. In addition, have it cost positive energy so you actually have an attack talent to spend light on.

Sunburst: Really buff damage, and up the radius. Perhaps make it minimal damage in radius 9, moderate in 6, and high in 3. In addition, it might leave behind burning light like Sun Flare does, and this light provides minor healing to you. Finally, like Firebeam, it should cost positive energy instead of making it.

Moonlight Ray: Make it range 7, so your starting ability is the longer range one.

Shadow Blast: Good as is.

Twilight Surge: Not sure how it does in combat since the guides I've looked at say to use it for autocasting. Perhaps add a little knockback so it can be used either as emergency energy gain or as a way to shove crowds off you?

Starfall: I am really confused by this ability. It's a star, why is it dealing darkness damage? Rename Moonfall and have it grant temporary negative energy regeneration in radius 6 for a few turns as the moon radiates darkness. Any enemy Anorithils will also gain the regeneration, and magical darkness is created in that radius while the regeneration lasts. Also, rename this category Moonlight, since Starfury really should be more light.

Blood Red Moon, Totality, and Corona: All good here.

Darkest Light: I don't really know what to do with this, though it should at least drop your light radius to 0 for you. It's magic, why do I need to take my lantern off?

Credit to Housepet for suggesting some of the ideas up above, such as swapping range on Moonlight Ray and Searing Light.

[donkatsu]

I don't really think that comparison is accurate. The main purpose of hate isn't really to spend it to hit things better - it's to build up a large amount. Most of the cursed actives deal at least double damage at full hate, while only costing 2 to 5 to use. Unlike positive/negative, where there's no benefit to having extra positive/negative past what you need to pay for talents, there's a lot of benefit to having extra hate. Having no hate leaves you severely weakened, while having no positive just means you have to cast barrier at the start of combat.

It's more like the logistics of "rapid decay outside of combat" are weird because ToME has no consistent mechanic for in combat versus out of combat. That's the similarity that I'm talking about. So I'm autoexploring and I'm losing, say, 10 pos/neg per turn. If I see a snow giant and I cast barrier, I generate 20 positive energy. Then do I lose 10 positive energy right away because I haven't hit anything yet? Does that mean I have to start every fight with an attack spell? Or maybe my decay goes away when I see something. Then if I get blinded for a few turns do I lose all my energy? Will using the Stone Wall cloak completely screw me over? What if I just explore and have like, a rat follow me around the entire level? Can I carry over my energy between fights if I heal using a regen infusion instead of resting, and then quickly move to the next enemy?

I think it'll take a lot of fiddling to make it work, maybe too much fiddling, but I'll playtest your addon class and we can see how it works out. I'm interested in how you would tackle it.

Also mid- to late- Anorithils are always in danger of running out of energy because of Corona bursts, so there is a difference between starting with 150 pos/neg energy and 30 pos/neg energy.

Red, you're making the same mistake as HousePet. Grayswandir's suggestion is addressing a different problem from the one you're talking about. Both problems exist. Both of them need to be addressed. The one you're talking about is relatively trivial to fix. Your solutions, in fact all of the solutions for that problem that you and HousePet are talking about, are good ones. But none of that matters in the slightest if you're starting every fight with full energy anyway.

[Red]

Didn't know about the Corona burst issue.

However, I see your point. The trick isn't to make going from empty to full interesting (though that has to happen too), the trick is either to make it valuable to start off empty or to set it on a sliding scale, where to be full in one is empty in the other. I'm getting a lot more now why you made Luminosity the way you did.

So to get back to the core issue of the thread, does anyone have any critique on Donkatsu's Luminosity system? Or any ideas on how to improve it further? Or for the real ambitious, a better system?