Brainstorming an "Ogre Magi" race

[Hogulus]

I went with the rune/inscription focus because a: runes have been associated with ogre-magi in a lot of settings/games, probably stemming from their abilities in Warcraft 2, b: when they aren't focused on runes, ogre-magi are often good at "found" magic, devices or scrolls (DCSS's ogres are bad at most magic but have a pretty good aptitude for Invocations, the skill associated with using god-granted abilities, and an okay aptitude for Evocations, the skill associated with using magical devices), which runes in ToME qualify as, and c: the way runes work in ToME means you don't have to be particularly quick-minded to use them effectively. They also seemed like a good way to distinguish ogres from magically-inclined trolls and giants, give them a distinct appearance of magical/natural inscriptions combined with tribal tattoos and a bit of lore-flavor beyond "big guy that smashes things and eats them," and give a low-INT-high-WIS race a reason to get comfortable with magic. They don't have to have a focus on inscription, but I like the idea for a lot of thematic reasons.

Anyway, I agree with the idea of having two (or one) rune talents, and two (or three) based on brutality / intimidation / eating. Non-undead races usually have an activated buff as their first talent, a "special" passive as their second or third talent, a situationally-triggered buff as their third or second talent, and a unique activated ability as their fourth; we should start trying to come up with one racial that fits into each of those categories.

I was about to follow that with a list of examples, but everything that I can think of for an activated buff sort of steps on another race's toes, as described by Davion. (Although, for the record, I think a buff to critical multiplier would be sufficiently unique; "Shaloren get more reliable damage / general combat effectiveness with WotE, halflings get to trigger on-crit effects more often, and ogres get to unreliably hit something hard" seems like it has enough diversity. A critical-multiplier buff as the first talent would be sort of worthless at low levels, though, especially considering that, following the mold, you'd have to activate it.)

EDIT: On discussion with the IRC channel, it might not be a good idea to stick with the mold. Instead, I'm thinking the first one should be a simple ability, one that's especially useful in the early game, like the other first-tier racials. Only idea I've come up with based on that, other than the ones previously brought up in the thread:

Chaotic Pulse: Unleash a blast of innate energy without trying to control it. A target within range 5 is blinded, dazed, stunned (half duration, half damage), or flees (half duration), chosen at random, with X duration (based on your Critical Multiplier), and takes [moderate damage] based on your Magic or Strength (whichever is higher). If the target is immune to the chosen effect, their spellpower, physical power, and mindpower will be reduced by Y for Z turns instead (based on your Critical Multiplier), and you will lose one detrimental effect, chosen at random. If there is no target, it will still remove an effect from you, but will do nothing else.

[Davion Fuxa]

Chaotic Pulse sounds a little too magical. I realize Shaloran Elves have two racial talents that deliberately mention their inner magical abilities, but both of which are their passives. If Ogre's are Arcane Constructs or Arcane only then it might be okay (think Yogre's).

Additionally, I don't necessarily think that Ogre's need to follow a 'Brutal' or 'Intimidating' theme. Having a 'Big Friendly Giant' player race in the mix of not so friendly giant races might be a really fun way of depicting Ogre's in game.

[Hogulus]

Yeah, it is a little too magical, come to think of it. How about the same effects and this flavor: "Script Surge: Ogres are covered in weaker, traditional inscriptions, and can release their energy in a powerful surge, at the expense of being able to control which ones are activated. Unleash a blast of uncontrolled energy, causing [etc]".

My view of ogres is that they tend to avoid conflict and prefer to be pacifistic - a cornered ogre may very well let himself be killed, if his assailants have forgivable motivations or families (particularly ones that would wipe out his/her tribe in revenge). There USED to be a lot of berserk ogres slaughtering anything they could, but they ate themselves into starvation or got finished off during the Spellhunt, with the exception of the ferals who fled into the woods. When ogres do fight, they do it to set an example; they make a determined effort to be as terrifying as possible as a means of minimizing body-count, so other would-be opponents leave them alone. As an adventurer who's in constant combat, you'll only see their brutal side, but in peaceful society they usually are "big friendly giants"; ogre traders see their job as connecting people with things they want, and they keep their prices fair, making only modest profits for themselves. I do like the idea of making their friendliness a bit more overt, and it'd be a fun way to depict them, but I can't think of a good way to do it in game mechanics.

[Davion Fuxa]

Traditional Inscriptions sounds like a good adjustment in flavor. It also sounds like a good Racial Talent that can be tailored regardless of whether Ogres a more Str/Mag or Str/Cun themed as well.

In regards to feral or Berserk Ogres slaughtering and devouring insanely, I can't say I think much of the concept; that sort of thing sounds more in tune with Trolls. I also don't think they need to try to emphasis that they are 'big and frightening'; though it really all depends on what sort of lore bloc we want to explore with them and how abused they might have been or what interactions that may have decided had with other races.

[Hogulus]

Yeah, feral ogres are pretty much bigger, smarter trolls with less regeneration and more magical aptitude. The similarity isn't coincidental; the halflings' experiments were more or less trying to accomplish what the orcs did by training trolls, only with the goal of making them more obedient and better at casting spells. (The second was a success; the first, well, they're relatively tame and civilized, but not enough to forget the hell they went through.) Non-feral ogres' intimidation strategy was developed when their tribes were harassed by halfling scouts, and it worked, in that the halfling generals decided that a useless piece of frozen wasteland wasn't worth losing more scouts and morale, and they could be put to better use fighting the Conclave directly.

I guess we could drop the barbaric aspect entirely and make them a race of struggling, suffering nice-guys, but I like the idea of them fitting in uncomfortably and with great unease, for reasons other than just looking ugly; furthermore, the Thaloren sorta already occupy the role of "nice tribals" in a sense.

[Davion Fuxa]

Probably wouldn't call the Thaloran nice, there really is no documentation saying what their temperament is, only that they are generally secluded in their forests and aren't too friendly with the Shaloran.

[Lubaf]

Okay, does anybody else have a full Ogre racial tree loadout suggestion?

Thanks
Luc "Quick Requests"

[astreoth]

yeah here's mine

inscription surge
instant active
your knowledge of inscriptions lets you store excess inscription power for emergencies
when used removes the saturation effects and lowers inscription cooldowns by X
scales with talent level and the higher of spell or mind power
more effective for runes

arcane vitality
passive
while the halflings experiments have destroyed much of the vitality your people had as trolls
they have not destroyed all of it
gain X health regeneration and X% healing mod, arcane resist, and silence resist

terrifying visage
passive
when a foe would do more than X% of your life in one blow you attempt to terrify them into fumbling the attack attempts to daze a foe before their attack uses the highest of phys, mag, and mind power with a bonus from the percentage of health you'd lose from the attack.

runic fury
active
while active you will get a free use of a random rune each turn regardless of whether the rune is on cooldown or not however all runes will be put on cooldown at the end of the rampage even if they weren't used
at cap you get regeneration based on the amount of saturation you have during runic fury.

edit:
just realized runic fury would set off teleport and phase door runes my bad should probably restrict it to shields and offensive runes

[Hogulus]

My set of four:

Inscription Blast (active): (as above)

Growing Rage (passive): Ogres are generally docile and slow to anger, but dangerous once they hit their breaking point. You gain one stack of Frustration for each attack or spell you make that misses, is blocked by a damage shield, or fails to critically hit, and three stacks if your target shrugs off critical damage. Each stack grants you X% Critical Multiplier (based on Strength or Constitution). Successful critical hits will reduce your stacks by Y% (reduced by Magic or Willpower).

Grisly Spectacle (sustain): Ogres avoided extermination by fleeing organized foes, and making morale-draining examples of any who pursued them. While this talent is active, if you score a kill in melee range, you will take an extra turn to torment and dismember your weakened victim before devouring it alive. This will restore X HP, and any who see the act will have a Y% chance (based on Strength or Cunning, whichever is higher, as well as your size category, and the ranks of your victim and the witnesses) to flee for Z turns. This can only activate once per turn, though killing multiple foes in melee at once will increase the chance of fleeing.

Saturation Surge (active): Ogres have a finer knowledge of how inscriptions work than most races, and can manipulate the energies in them at will. Transfer your Infusion Saturation and Runic Saturation debuffs to an enemy within range 5, placing up to X of your target's inscriptions on cooldown for Y turns, based on how much saturation you have accumulated. If you have no saturation, you can instead take control of one of your foe's attack inscriptions, allowing you to damage other foes with it (aimed from your initial target) and place it on cooldown. At talent level 5, you gain an extra inscription slot (up to 5).

[Doctornull]

Okay, does anybody else have a full Ogre racial tree loadout suggestion?

I did one of these already, then added two alternate powers, so I'm going to assume those weren't acceptable for some reason.

My guidelines for a racial loadout would be:
- Make size matter.
- Inscription focus.

The juxtaposition of this would be that their large bodies eventually give them access to one additional Inscription slot (for a maximum of 6, which is the highest value allowed in the game).

[Davion Fuxa]

- Make size matter.

This might be worth getting some input from Darkgod, to see if he potentially has any sort of objection to more then them just being a different size.

[Doctornull]

This might be worth getting some input from Darkgod

I won't be on IRC for a few days, so ... Please let us know what he says!

[Davion Fuxa]

Don't use IRC - probably should at this point but IRC has never really been my thing.

[Lubaf]

Having discussed this with Darkgod on the IRC channel briefly (mainly gauging his interest in including Ogres in the main game), he mentioned a possibility: Ogres are refugees from another planet.

Not sure what to think of that, other then to maybe go with the "Multiple Choice Past" method.

Thanks
Luc "Ogre" French

[Davion Fuxa]

he mentioned a possibility: Ogres are refugees from another planet.

Sounds like a reference to Ogre's from Warcraft. I believe both the Orcs and the Ogre's came through the Darkportal.

In your discussion, did you discuss what he thought in regards to size for Ogres? Specifically I know he had stated he wasn't interesting in the Berserker Class long ago getting anything that interacting with size modifications - the thing is on if this applies to Races as well?