Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp

[Fortescue]

Its my understanding that Precise Strikes is actually really good if you have a lot of Dex, you get more crit from that than you would from the same amount of Cunning? I haven't tested it myself, maybe I'm wrong.

[Fortescue]

Just downloaded the add-on and it shows active on my add-ons list in-game, yet I can't see any new classes nor does it change the current Berserker. Am I doing it wrong or what gives?

The add-on was my solo project before DarkGod noticed the effort from on-high and decided he would make these changes part of the core game (I'm 99% sure that is what is happening, Berserker needed this pretty badly). The add-on currently only changes a few things like making Bloodthirst initially available. It is better, but nowhere near as good as this full change list will be.

[bpat]

Its my understanding that Precise Strikes is actually really good if you have a lot of Dex, you get more crit from that than you would from the same amount of Cunning? I haven't tested it myself, maybe I'm wrong.

That's true, Precise Strikes appears to scale well. However, I find it much too dangerous to use unless I have a good attack or global speed boost (like Blinding Speed) because getting doubleturned is a serious threat due to the reduced attack speed. As a result, I tend not to use it until mid-late game making Cunniing a better stat for a good portion of the game. After some reconsideration, I've somewhat changed my mind about Dexterity's accuracy boost being worthless since enemies like Dreads can prove annoying without absurd amounts of accuracy, but it's still not essential thanks to Perfect Strike. Dexterity's value for Berserkers shouldn't entirely depend on one talent, it'd be nice if it could affect more than just Precise Strikes.

[Fortescue]

What Dex affected... THROWING AXES

[Mewtarthio]

Dreads aren't annoying because of defense. They're annoying because of perma-stealth and the associated flat miss chance, which no amount of accuracy can overcome.

[Fortescue]

So, coming down the pipe and pending approval from DarkGod some time far in the future (possibly a month or more out, possibly not in time for pushing the first Berserker update) I will be introducing a Dex focused category called Primal Hunter. The most flavorful aspect of this category will be the inclusion of a Throwing Axe ability with a moderate cooldown. All I can tell you about it for right now is that it will NOT be a damage skill without some kind of melee component involved. DarkGod was very clear about that, selling him on giving any kind of ranged ability to Berserker will be an uphill battle. I think though, that it is thematic and fun enough to justify, and it will simply be another test of my ability to design something that is a good match for ToME and Berserker itself.

Short version: I agree Precise Strikes is not a super compelling reason to dump into Dex. I want to make a new advanced (locked) Dex category named Primal Hunter. There will (hopefully) be a throwing axe involved.

I have yet to come up with anything compelling regarding a new Constitution based talent category, but that doesn't mean I can't. I am currently spending most of my free time on another project for DarkGod (not Berserker related) and when that is over I have many more really cool ideas that I think the players will love once they are as properly fleshed out as Bloodied Berserker has been.

Berserkers have always been a favorite trope / character of mine, and you can bet I will be closely monitoring these changes and suggesting further refinements as necessary. It is my greatest hope that everyone playing the new Berserker has a lot of fun doing so!

[HousePet]

Concerned that Death Dance could become unusable if there isn't a clear tile 2 tiles away.

[Fortescue]

Concerned that Death Dance could become unusable if there isn't a clear tile 2 tiles away.

Solution: Don't fight in corridors / tight spaces ^_^

it is almost like that is what I was trying to encourage all along...

[Theyleon]

I think more the issue is the area where it's supposed to shine (largish groups) are likely to be areas where you are unable to use it most of the time, due to it's movement constraints.

[Fortescue]

I think more the issue is the area where it's supposed to shine (largish groups) are likely to be areas where you are unable to use it most of the time, due to it's movement constraints.

If the group is packed that tight it would make an excellent one to use Warshout on first Then maybe you'd get an opening, or at least be able to reposition yourself.

[HousePet]

Warshout is unlikely to make a gap in a large group.

[Fortescue]

Warshout is unlikely to make a gap in a large group.

Can buy you time to move / phase door / whatever into a better position, though, one you could Death Dance from.

I'm considering letting players pick how far they travel / if they travel also, since moving less far will typically mean hitting less enemies anyway, so you're getting less efficiency for your Stamina cost. There is not really a need to force 2 moves unless someone else can think of one.

[HousePet]

I thought the current Death Dance talent was fine anyway.

[Saka]

I see that you spent a lot of time on this, good job!


Here are some comments I'd like to make about berserker and your proposed changes:

I like the idea of fearless cleave, and I'd propose to combine the function into stunning blow for simplicity's sake. If you want more buttons to push, Stunning blow should just have a lowered cooldown, keep the stun duration, just so you arent forced to press stun just because the duration is so short, while you should be performing other actions instead. There's a big difference between having the OPTION to press stun vs being FORCED to press stun just because the duration is so short. Stun is a key skill to zerker and I don't think the stun duration is too long, at all.

The rest of the proposed changes look like a lot of microing, thinking, and meticulous planning with huge drawbacks. The new Death Dance for example, looks like the restrictions on it will be unreliable and tedious to watch out for. The changes should deal with simple mechanics, such as upping any of: damage, range, lower stamina, etc. And Execute, The 200% counter drawback makes me want to use it even less, because think about it, if you are sure they are going to die, the 200% counter drawback is pointless, if you aren't sure they are going to die from the execute, you aint gonna use it. the drawback discourages players from using it entirely, I am talking about the higher difficulties, because at 20% HP it's a good question whether you need to execute at all. The proposed berserker fury look incredibly tedious to manage as well, I generally feel like there's a lot of artificial complexity with huge drawbacks, when they should be direct boosts or simplifications. Keep unstoppable, don't nerf it. Unstoppable is for survival, not about killing fast. I'd trade two more turns on unstoppable over doing more damage while in unstoppable any day, maybe that's just me, because for long fights, those turns might be crucial.


I like the fact that berserker is fairly straightforward to play, with very little buttons to manage. Too many hotkeys is a disease in games these days, most notable offenders are Aion and World of Warcraft for example, they are sets of very situational buttons/skills such that some of them you must press these buttons when needed, else you lose, yet most of the time they sit there untouched. This is not very good design, it's clutter, artificial complexity. Would you really invest 5/5 into a bunch of situational skills? I wouldn't, unless the game demands it and there are no better options, then maybe, with annoyance.

I like berserker for the fact that they are very good at what they do, and that is a simple stunning, bumping, high damage machine. I make a fresh marauder to try to play like a zerker and i gotta micro my buttons like crazy to achieve the same damage, it just gets tiring (i manage a job that requires high mental acuity at all times, so I just want to numb out at the end of the day).

So if zerkers need to be changed, they need to be changed to have more passive to better their stunning, bumping, killing and enduring while still being a straightforward/simple(read: not much buttons). The sunder tree is definitely dull and need re-imagining; they could be passives instead, or more interesting passives, etc. Sunder armor could have been a passive easily, and even then it's debatable if i'd put 5 points into them, we will see.


PS:

First, more buttons to press does not mean more complex, less buttons to press does not necessarily mean dumbed down.

Second, I am not new to roguelikes, I've ascended three 7 conduct tourists on alt.org/nethack back in 2010, the 7 conducts combination(AIPPWAG) are special in the way that you cannot 'cheat' your way into uber gear, and of course no bones, no pudding farming for those who play NH. I was in the the middle of 10 conduct(same mentality) tourist before I lost interest, the save file is still there. So I am not some random newb looking for simplification and dumbing down of the game, lol

Existing Berserker is well ... Dull. People like it for Stunning Blow, Warshout, and Unstoppable mostly. Two of those things probably need nerfed, and everything else about Berserker could be made more thematic and interesting for players, as well as more powerful.

The heavy emphasis of this remake is on having more buttons to press than the 3 I named above, more rewards for going all the way 5/5 into a talent, greater mobility, and lots more encouragement to take risks by offering greater rewards for doing so. The passive portion of Berserker Furry works well with Bloodbath and should encourage players to be less afraid of taking hits.

I've spent the last 3 weeks drafting and revising this list of improvements to Berserker with the help of PureQuestion, tomisgo, DarkGod, Shibari, and others in IRC. Some or all of these changes have a decent probability of making it into the game, so here is your chance to provide feedback and possibly alter the course of where the Berserker revamp is going.

New Berserker Talent Categories

2H Weapon Assault (replaces 2H Offense)
This is a series of increasingly devastating attack techniques that require a 2H weapon to use.
Justification: The old 2H Offense category felt unfocused, this new category is very clearly about putting the hurt on your opponents from first to last talent, and about giving Berserkers buttons they really, really want to push! Screw bumping into monsters all day, leave that to games like DCSS

Fearless Cleave (NEW!)
Take 1 step towards your enemies, using the momentum to swing your weapon strongly in a 3 square arc (centered towards your move) for 110% to 210% damage. This costs 16 Stamina, but has no cooldown.

Justification: This is intended to eliminate that crappy old melee strategy of walking up to opponents until you are 2 squares away, then waiting a turn so they walk next to you and you get the first hit. Berserkers don’t wait, Berserkers rush into danger! This talent is key as heck to the new Berserker and embodies the idea of taking risks. If the monster doesn’t die, you are probably going to get smacked, but you know that, and must be fearless to use it! The lack of cooldown is because I want there to always be a button to push, but it is limited by the movement requirement because once you are next to a monster you would need to make a gap to use it again (unless you fearlessly cleave into another incoming monster!). Also Death Dance was the only basic AoE attack prior to this being added, and while this isn’t a large AoE, it will help a bit. Finally, it offers an alternative fight opener to Rush, which is more appropriate for ranged opponents anyway. It also could synergize well with Warshout!

Stunning Blow (Moved from the deleted 2H Maiming category)
Stun an enemy for 3-5 turns while doing 124% to 155% damage, 5 turn cooldown. 8 Stamina.

Justification: One of the only good attacks vanilla Berserker had (so I kept it), but I lowered the max duration because it was a tad too good. Lowered the CD because Berserkers needed more buttons to press.

Death Dance
Move up to 2 squares in straight line, passing through one enemy, and attacking all surrounding enemies (14 squares total, since you don’t attack yourself, 8 initial + 3 forward + 3 forward) for regular attack damage, and at ranks 3-5 causes bleeding damage that does 50%-150% (scales w/ effective skill level) normal attack damage over 5 turns. This bleeding damage can stack. The square you are landing in must be empty. The cooldown is reduced by 1 for each enemy you hit with Death Dance. Can be used in place if you don't want to move / can't move.

5 turn cooldown. 20 Stamina.

Justification: Death Dance was effective, but boring as all get out. There was also not much of a reason to put more than one point in it. This new version needs some testing, but would be more interesting and fun. Also, I like the dynamic of extra mobility while engaging enemies, but not while running away from them. The bleed is for flavor, and the stacking is encouragement to Dance back into groups multiple times (risky behavior).

Execution (Replaces Death Blow)
Deals an automatic critical hit, ignoring an additional 20-100 armor, and boosting your attack damage by 1% to 5% per enemy missing hp %. For example, an enemy at 20% life would cause this attack to deal a bonus of 80% to 400% based on skill level. If you fail to destroy your enemy, you are exposed to a Counterattack for 200% damage during their turn. Cooldown of 10-6 turns. 25 Stamina.

Justification: Draining lots of Stamina to do one attack was a bad tradeoff that meant less button pushing. I added the Armor Pen as some extra insurance that the skill will still work as intended even vs. heavily armored enemies. It still has a relatively high Stamina cost, though, because it is appropriately powerful for a tier 4 attack skill. The chance of instant kill was irrelevant because once something is below 20% hp it was going to die soon regardless. Getting Counterattacked for failing to kill something is a pretty big risk, and introduces a greater element of player skill in deciding when to use this.

Strength of the Berserker (replaces 2H Maiming)
Justification: Sunder Arms / Blood Frenzy GONE. Instead, this is a powerful Berserker-themed utility category. The Sunders were boring, Blood Frenzy was not useful. There was really no salvaging the original category, and Berserker / Warshout needed new homes now that 2H Assault was refocused into a series of attack skills.

Berserker Rage (Berserker renamed from 2H Weapon Offense)
Sustained. Instant. Gain x attack damage (scales w/ Str) and beginning at rank 3 x critical dmg bonus (scales w/ effective skill level) per turn while sustaining. You push your body to its limit and lose 2% of your max HP per turn while Berserker Fury is active. Will not reduce player below 1% hp, will not auto-disable. Cooldown 30 turns. (keeps old Stun and Pinning resist values)

Passive. You gain + 0.5% critical hit chance for every 1% missing current hp.

Justification: Old Berserker was a newbie trap. Losing 10 armor in the early levels is too dangerous, but late game it was irrelevant. The accuracy bonus wasn’t necessary, but Berserkers could have a hard time with high armour targets. The new hp loss dynamic plays well with the new Bloodrage and helps emphasize that players need to focus on hp regen as a stat. Renaming is necessary so people know whether you’re talking about the class or this skill.

Shattering Blow (Revised Sunder Armor)
An attack for normal damage that aims for the enemy’s defenses rather than a killing blow. Reduces their Armour value by x (scales w/ strengthl), and shatters any damage shields they currently have. Cooldown is 15-5 turns (scales w/ effective skill level).

Justification: A good utility skill and one that DarkGod already revised prior to any work I began on improving Berserker.

Warshout (From 2H Weapon Offense)
Unchanged.
Justification: The only other great CC Berserkers had. Fits the theme of this new talent category nicely as well.

Relentless Fury (NEW!)
Instant cast. May be activated when the player is below 30% stamina to cause +10-30 (scaling with Constitution) stamina regeneration for 4-8 (scaling with effective skill level) turns. While this buff is active you also move and attack 10%-30% (scaling with effective skill level) faster. 30 turn cooldown.

Justification: With all these new buttons to press in 2H Weapon Assault, Berserkers are going to be a lot more pressed for Stamina. An ability that only restores Stamina is boring though, so the speed bonus was added! To prevent players opening fights with this, the 30% stamina requirement was added. This is a “glue” skill that ties the concept together by encouraging players to spend Stamina and press buttons as much possible, and will let them take advantage of Fearless Cleave’s lack of a CD even early in the game.

Bloodthirst
Available as an initial category, swapped w/ Combat Veteran Passives so players have access at level 1. This was the only flavorful, defining, and generally really great vanilla Berserker category and new players should get to play with it as soon as possible to understand why Berserker is good and what is different about it from other melee classes.

Mortal Terror
Moved to Tier 1, otherwise unchanged.
Justification: Bloodbath requires critical hits to function...

Bloodbath
Moved to Tier 2, otherwise unchanged.
Justification: See above

Bloody Butcher (replaces Bloodrage)
Passive. You gain 10-30% dmg (strength) and ignore 10-50% physical resist (effective skill level) vs. Bleeding enemies.

Unstoppable
Max duration reduced from 7 turns to 5,
Justification: due to revised Berserker Rage making those 5 turns a LOT more powerful, and it seems to be a general consensus that vanilla Unstoppable is already too strong.

Looking Forward
So, coming down the pipe and pending approval from DarkGod some time far in the future (possibly a month or more out, possibly not in time for pushing the first Berserker update) I will be introducing a Dex focused category called Primal Hunter. The most flavorful aspect of this category will be the inclusion of a Throwing Axe ability with a moderate cooldown. All I can tell you about it for right now is that it will NOT be a damage skill without some kind of melee component involved. DarkGod was very clear about that, selling him on giving any kind of ranged ability to Berserker will be an uphill battle. I think though, that it is thematic and fun enough to justify, and it will simply be another test of my ability to design something that is a good match for ToME and Berserker itself.

Short version: I agree Precise Strikes is not a super compelling reason to dump into Dex. I want to make a new advanced (locked) Dex category named Primal Hunter. There will (hopefully) be a throwing axe involved.

I have yet to come up with anything compelling regarding a new Constitution based talent category, but that doesn't mean I can't. I am currently spending most of my free time on another project for DarkGod (not Berserker related) and when that is over I have many more really cool ideas that I think the players will love once they are as properly fleshed out as Bloodied Berserker has been.

Berserkers have always been a favorite trope / character of mine, and you can bet I will be closely monitoring these changes and suggesting further refinements as necessary. It is my greatest hope that everyone playing the new Berserker has a lot of fun doing so!

[Fortescue]

Lets start with the most interesting bit first:

Second, I am not new to roguelikes, I've ascended three 7 conduct tourists on alt.org/nethack back in 2010, the 7 conducts combination(AIPPWAG) are special in the way that you cannot 'cheat' your way into uber gear, and of course no bones, no pudding farming for those who play NH. I was in the the middle of 10 conduct(same mentality) tourist before I lost interest, the save file is still there. So I am not some random newb looking for simplification and dumbing down of the game, lol

My qualifications are that I started playing ToME 3 weeks ago and got a Berserker to level 15 before deciding it was dreadfully dull and could be so much better. It didn't die, I just didn't think the class was very fun and was not compelled to find out how much more interesting bumping into things could get in ToME, so I stopped playing and started designing an improvement.

Here we are today My experiences indicate that no one here is going to judge your ideas or opinion on your "gamer cred", doing so would simply be a form of the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy.

I see that you spent a lot of time on this, good job!


Here are some comments I'd like to make about berserker and your proposed changes:

I like the idea of fearless cleave, and I'd propose to combine the function into stunning blow for simplicity's sake. If you want more buttons to push, Stunning blow should just have a lowered cooldown, keep the stun duration, just so you arent forced to press stun just because the duration is so short, while you should be performing other actions instead. There's a big difference between having the OPTION to press stun vs being FORCED to press stun just because the duration is so short. Stun is a key skill to zerker and I don't think the stun duration is too long, at all.

Stunning Blow is for real the most boring skill left on Berserker after my initial revisions were done. It was also overpowered with its old duration. Lowering the CD was primarily to give more opportunities to press buttons, after all there is no guarantee you will chain stun anything, or even that using it every time the CD is up would be the best move now that you have 2 skills with NO cooldowns that would always be available. More buttons doesn't necessarily mean "better" gameplay, but in this case it means more player choice than rolling your face across 1-x keys and then spending the next 10 turns bumping into thing / running away before performing another faceroll.

The rest of the proposed changes look like a lot of microing, thinking, and meticulous planning with huge drawbacks. The new Death Dance for example, looks like the restrictions on it will be unreliable and tedious to watch out for. The changes should deal with simple mechanics, such as upping any of: damage, range, lower stamina, etc. And Execute, The 200% counter drawback makes me want to use it even less, because think about it, if you are sure they are going to die, the 200% counter drawback is pointless, if you aren't sure they are going to die from the execute, you aint gonna use it. the drawback discourages players from using it entirely, I am talking about the higher difficulties, because at 20% HP it's a good question whether you need to execute at all. The proposed berserker fury look incredibly tedious to manage as well, I generally feel like there's a lot of artificial complexity with huge drawbacks, when they should be direct boosts or simplifications. Keep unstoppable, don't nerf it. Unstoppable is for survival, not about killing fast. I'd trade two more turns on unstoppable over doing more damage while in unstoppable any day, maybe that's just me, because for long fights, those turns might be crucial.

Death Dance doesn't require you to move, only Fearless Cleave needs that restriction. So, DD is just plain better than it used to be now. There is some gentle encouragement to use it into a group of enemies so you can immediately use it on them again, I don't think that is really unreliable or tedious, the cooldown is still something like 4 turns shorter than it used to be even without hitting more than 1 enemy.

Execute needs a drawback or there is no element of player skill in the talent. It is your strongest attack, by far, and you need to have a good gauge on how much damage you're going to do with it before you commit to using it. From a design perspective this is accomplished by both guaranteeing it will be a critical hit, and gauranteeing you will ignore x armour, making the damage consistent across multiple uses vs. many different types of enemies. The old drawback was really awkward because it cost you so much Stamina that using it to finish 1 enemy in a group could leave you without any Stamina to continue fighting, though maybe that wasn't as big a deal back when all you had to do w/ Berserker was bump into things and press Stunning Blow when it came up every 6 turns. I'd rather you expose yourself to 1 strong attack than be left without any Stamina in the new Berserker. Maybe a 200% Counterattack is too harsh... but if it gets people killed DarkGod will probably like it I don't think skilled players will have any trouble figuring out the right times to use it though, given how consistent I made the damage. Really all the penalty does is keep you from spamming it with no chance at all of killing something, which lets me lower the cooldown on it.

New Berserker Fury (since renamed to Rage I think... I forget) is a proper Sustain now. It won't stop you from fighting by running you out of Stamina, but it does help direct players towards focusing their gear on HP Regen, which will be a lot easier to start getting now that Bloodthirst is becoming a basic (unlocked) category. With enough HP Regen from items or Combat Veteran passives you won't ever need to turn it off anyway.

Unstoppable, like Stunning Blow, is just overpowered regardless of any new changes coming down the pipe and needs to be reigned in. Invulnerability in a roguelike is not generally a good idea to begin with in my opinion, but it is so emblematic of Berserker that I am willing to settle for nerfing it... for now. It is a problem when your entire class is defined by one overpowered ability.

I like the fact that berserker is fairly straightforward to play, with very little buttons to manage. Too many hotkeys is a disease in games these days, most notable offenders are Aion and World of Warcraft for example, they are sets of very situational buttons/skills such that some of them you must press these buttons when needed, else you lose, yet most of the time they sit there untouched. This is not very good design, it's clutter, artificial complexity. Would you really invest 5/5 into a bunch of situational skills? I wouldn't, unless the game demands it and there are no better options, then maybe, with annoyance.

As far as a bunch of highly situational skills, I don't think new Berserker has that problem. The most situational ones are Warcry and Shattering Blow (new Sunder Armour). Warcry was still considered really good by a lot of players and Shattering Blow has new secondary functionality now that fills a niche in Berserker play. I try to always give proper encouragement to max out any talent, and these might need more, but they are the most situational buttons and I didn't invent them. We'll see how things go in play testing once DarkGod has coded most of these changes in.

I like berserker for the fact that they are very good at what they do, and that is a simple stunning, bumping, high damage machine. I make a fresh marauder to try to play like a zerker and i gotta micro my buttons like crazy to achieve the same damage, it just gets tiring (i manage a job that requires high mental acuity at all times, so I just want to numb out at the end of the day).

Then you're doing it wrong. Try maxing out Flurry + Greater Weapon Focus to do game breaking damage (according to Shibari, resident expert player / dev). Dual Wield is /far/ superior to 2H for raw damage output.

Finally, you will gain no ground with me by suggesting bumping into things as your primary method of combat is ever superior to "microing, thinking, and meticulous planning". If you don't like pressing buttons, ToME may not be the game for you. It has always been my impression that the goal of ToME is to make combat more interesting than other roguelikes by offering everyone, even the Warrior classes, more to do than just bump into things.