Option: Downgrade permadeath mode after death

[Kaja Rainbow]

The penalty for death is completely irrelevant until you die. Unless there's a hell, but that's not exactly something a game can implement unless Mephistopholes built your computer.

I don't even get what point you're trying to make here. And it seems like you're completely failing to understand the mentality of a particular type of player. You seem to keep trying to argue that their feelings're completely invalid and only your own feelings (or what you seem to be thinking of as your own logical approach) on the matter are valid. I mean, how else can I interpret arguments like "It's all in your head"?

Let me put it simply: psychological factors are a crucial part of game design. A game completely divorced of such psychological factors is a cold and sterile thing, only numbers and nothing more. The best game designers understand this. Even Tetris has stuff like visual and aural feedback that stimulate your senses and a scoring mechanism to mark your progress. Without its assorted psychologically reinforcing mechanisms, it'd be a far less addictive game.

And in this case, having only one life to work with is a very important psychological factor to those players. It pressures them to make the best of that one life, a pressure that'd be lost if they knew they could fall back on several more lives if they fail once. In short, it's a self-imposed challenge with direct reinforcement in the game mechanics. And, no, merely losing the ability to earn achievements wouldn't be the same. Even I feel that's kinda a trivial penalty for death. There's a reason I don't simply play exploration mode and aim for zero deaths, and it isn't achievements, as nice as they can be. A 'logical' argument won't change that.

In fact, if you want to try to nullify those feelings with logic, how about I try to nullify the desire for achievements with logic? How about that? Something like how you shouldn't need markers of your feats, as simply knowing you did them should be enough. That kind of argument can be extended to a lot of things, to the point where it'd just get ridiculous.

If having a goal of zero deaths but also extra lives to fall on is important for you, why not add a specific achievement for winning without any deaths? Something like "Just Like Roguelike" or "The Undying". That way you can get an achievement for being awesome enough not to die even once, but still have a fallback (adventure mode lives or the like) if you fail at that goal. I think this might be ideal for people like me who like aiming for few deaths but like having a safety net.

[supermini]

The penalty for death makes a huge difference with regards to how much risk I would take for a reward.

On adventure I get enough second chances that I can afford to take risks and not lose all progress.

On roguelike every time I die I lose all time that I have invested up to that point, so while I might take a chance with a vault in blighted ruins (with just a few minutes to lose), I might not take the same kind of chance with a High Peak vault.

If you want a practical example on how it would affect my decision making, on adventure I might take a shot at Atamathon before going to High Peak to make Limmir's amulet, and on roguelike I probably won't until after.

That's not to say that I won't take stupid risks on roguelike - I do all the time - but every time I do there is much more at stake, which makes it much more thrilling than it would be on adventure. That's really why I play roguelike...That feeling when I enter the Dark Crypt and see 6 casters in LOS, and I ask myself why oh why did I ever put myself in the situation to lose hours of progress for a bit of loot and xp. I get a kick out of that.

You could say that the difference here is psychological, but seeing as the pleasure I get from playing the game is also only psychological, that's really what counts for me.

[SageAcrin]

And also, such psychological effects do impact your chance to clear.

A good example of this is the Dark Crypt. Now, the Dark Crypt is quite a dangerous little place, and you don't necessarily control when you reach it well.

If you are playing conservatively-the kind of play that is more likely to win on one life-you probably won't go in.

If you are playing recklessly, you will go in and die a lot of times...but you may come out with more gear and loot.

If you get lucky enough, in other words, you can take risk and have better payoff later, thanks to more EXP and gear. I skipped and put off a lot of dungeons on Nightmare so I had an optimal chance, and it strapped me for EXP and gear to a degree.

Had I instead been playing with a downgrade mode, I probably would have taken the risks and continued with the game if they failed.

It would have taken longer, but it would have definitely been easier when things aligned...because, in the end, the achievements didn't mean as much to me as the runs, so I would have taken the method that preserved the runs...once I was halfway through them. A matter of sunk time cost, in other words.

(Also, in my case, I was playing a Ghoul, which hadn't been cleared on Nightmare/Adventure yet. So that still would have been an accomplishment.)

[Atarlost]

Whether a check box has been ticked at game start does not dictate your psychology. If you want to get the permadeath achievements death makes that impossible whether it also kicks you out of the game or not. Indeed, if you really want them you'll refuse resurrection anyways because playing afterwards is wasted time.

[Kaja Rainbow]

Whether a check box has been ticked at game start does not dictate your psychology. If you want to get the permadeath achievements death makes that impossible whether it also kicks you out of the game or not. Indeed, if you really want them you'll refuse resurrection anyways because playing afterwards is wasted time.

...Have you even seriously read our arguments at all? "Does not dictate your psychology?" Seriously? So you can read our minds and say that we aren't telling the truth about our own subjective experiences that knowing this's our one sole life does affect our playing experience and style? You're practically calling us liars. Or do you simply not recognize any feelings and experiences other than your own, at best regarding them as mistaken?

And, hell, you talk about achievements when I already said achievements're insignificant as a death penalty (another thing that makes me think you aren't really seriously reading our arguments). I don't give enough of a shit about achievements to drop a character just because it can't earn them. They're just a nice bonus but nothing more. If a character glitches out such that it can't earn achievements, I'll still play to beat the game with it.

[cttw]

I usually play adventure. When I play roguelike, it's a damm different game.

Maybe you should try.

[Kaja Rainbow]

Come to think of it, Atarlost, all of your arguments've been rather short and dismissive. So I'm out.

[SageAcrin]

Whether a check box has been ticked at game start does not dictate your psychology. If you want to get the permadeath achievements death makes that impossible whether it also kicks you out of the game or not. Indeed, if you really want them you'll refuse resurrection anyways because playing afterwards is wasted time.

See, at this point, the argument has become "nuh-uh that's not so" on your part.

I respect that you don't agree, but if you don't have any points that aren't rehash, I'm not sure why you continue. I've certainly tried pretty hard to explain this effect to you, but I don't feel like you're making any effort to understand, just to deride.

I'm certainly not one to push an argument past the point where it's useless, though.

Also, heh, while posting this, Kaja had the same reaction. Neat timing.

[Doctornull]

Whether a check box has been ticked at game start does not dictate your psychology.

It does for some people, including me.