Fungus tree - overpowered?

[Final Master]

I'm just going to say this:

Those of you that don't think Conveyance on a NON-Mage character isn't pure awesome - try playing any other roguelike without using PD or Teleport and see if you get out of the single digit lvls with any consistency.

Granted, each class in T4 is really defined compared to say... Angband, and you have a lot more options in T4, but I would agree that Conveyance is a good general tree.

Point 1 - You will almost surely have enough magic points tacked on via kit to beable to get PD and Teleport at tlvl 1 [though PD at 5 might be a stretch before mid game]. However, just having a non-interactive [by npcs] escape is a god-send. If I could have a rogue with PD regularly, they would live a lot more often.

Point 2 - As long as you have mana regen via Rest, you won't run into mana issues if it runs on a normal cooldown. Mana gets [bonuses] via willpower, but you gain mana [and any other resource bar bonus but Hate] from your character levels - so it will grow naturally as you level.

Point 3 - Why argue against another reward? You don't have to use it, and as there isn't anything right now, why complain?

[HousePet]

Conveyance is still useless without some points in magic.

Since many of the non zigur escort rewards are based on spellpower andor mana, how about grant +10 spellpower and 0.5 mana regen when resting, to non mage class characters.

Mage class characters can get Conveyance or Aegis or whatever instead.

Or maybe have another way(s) of completing the quest for people who don't want to support magic or nature.

[SageAcrin]

I would like to state for the record that the reactions to Conveyance as an alternate option to Antimagic range from "Vaguely useless" to "Extremely good", with most everything inbetween as well.

Isn't this basically the perfect alternate to Fungus, then? If no one can decide on its worth relatively, it's a true sidegrade.

[HousePet]

Its not really addressing the situation if it ends up with characters that don't really have a use for either though.

[String]

I don't know much about the metagame yet but what if the mage reward was just +1 cat point (he takes you to some ancient library to learn up or something x) )? Broken or useless?

[pheonix89]

I don't know much about the metagame yet but what if the mage reward was just +1 cat point (he takes you to some ancient library to learn up or something x) )? Broken or useless?

Hilariously broken. Cat points are a HUGE deal.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

A thought on cat points. Another cat point for an infusion slot or extra talent tree unlocked would be a huge deal. What about improving a category's mastery rating? Few people bother to do that, and it's rare that a build is significantly helped by it. The only ones that even come to mind are the doomed class's shadow tree. (Cat point nets you an extra shadow.) Anorithil would, but getting more procs out of hymn of moonlight really only helps if you can also get more procs out of corona, which means devoting TWO cat points into improving a tree.

If we just got an improvement in mastery equivalent to a cat point, is this still 'broken'? (But we receive it straight away, so we never 'receive' the cat point to spend on infusions or new trees.)

A thought that would bring more use to a seldom used aspect of the game.

But 'oh hey, we have this ancient library that can teach you more about anything you could possibly know, even powers beyond anything we could understand like celestial trees or antimagic' seems a little ridiculous, from a plot standpoint at least.

Or maybe have another way(s) of completing the quest for people who don't want to support magic or nature.

Seconded. More choices brings more depth to the characters we create, which in turn raises the connection we have to them. Anything to improve our connection to the characters and the depth to which we can be drawn into the game is always a godsend. More is ALWAYS better. For that matter, we should really have 5-6 variants of every dungeon as well.

[Final Master]

Housepet - Spellpower has NO effect on PD or Teleport as far as I can tell. Why does magic matter? There isn't a fail chance...

[HousePet]

Conveyance talents require Magic to take.

And spellpower is used when you try to teleport an enemy, but that isn't relavent here.

[ohioastro]

I like Conveyance as a reward. It's interesting even for non-mages, in the same way that a Rogue could invest in Stone Alchemy given the nice related prodigy.

Generally speaking, you can get around stat requirements for trees easily in the mid to late game with the stats that show up on gear, or at least by holding onto a couple of handy big-stat rings or other gear items. This doesn't help you if you need high stats to effectively use the skill, but that's not the case for teleport etc.

[Amphouse]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that, while I like conveyance, and there should be some sort of reward for killing Urkis from the mages, it might be better to make an entirely new tree. What should be in the tree, I have no idea. My creativity is lacking. But something more exciting than a couple of teleports and a shield that does little with low spellpower. Whatever the reward is, it has to make non-mage/non-undead characters consider not going AM. Because right now everybody who can go AM, usually will and should go AM.(Rogues and archers are the only exceptions I can think of, because of gear dependency)

[ohioastro]

Berserkers too. They have enough things to spend points on, and you do lose out on a lot of gear from the arcane restriction. Just phase door and teleport are reward enough, in my mind at least.

[Sirrocco]

So, I have a silly question...

Why is mana still mage-specific? It made sense back in the day, when the three resources we had to play with were mana, stamina, and equilibrium. Mana was something strange and rare and special, and only very particular people could use it. Now, though, we have stuff like paradox and vim out there, and mana is starting to look pretty bland. What benefit is gained from declaring that mana only really regenerates for people who are mages or who have the right sort of rune?

Eh, I guess it has some balance features for the hybrid classes - makes it so that shadowblades and arcane blades are playing with two semi-crippled resource bars, rather than two full resource bars. It just seems a little... old.

Still, if we're dedicated to mana's specialness, then we might want to consider a new tree. Still base it on magic - it makes sense, and as noted, that level of magic can be handled with equip swaps pretty easily. Have it be based a bit on spellpower, but not too much. It's nice and thematic, but we want this to be appealing to nonmages. Have it be general utility, with a decent theme, and not stack in a major way with what the magic classes already have.

Personally, I think that including some teleport here is potentially useful, and thematic. Availability of teleport is, after all, the thing that you most obviously give up when joining the zig.

*hrms*

- First skill should be something to handle the magic. Actually, having it just give you a straight-up static boost to your mana regen could fit, or perhaps a bit of that and some magic save.
- Second skill should be something phase-door-like, but not the same. Instead of having a phase door that gets more accurate as you get more skill points in it, have a phase door that makes your enemies lose track of you briefly and makes you invisible for a turn. It's not exactly the same as an instant action, but it gets to a similar place, and it feels appropriate for the "run and hide" ethos of Angolwen. More skill gives higher invisibility power and distance and lower cooldown (to a minimum in the 8-10 range). More spellpower cranks up the strength fo the invisibility a bit more.
- Third skill should be a generic skill form of the teleport to Angolwen that archmages get. One point (which said Archmages start with now) gets you the same thing they get. More points drop the charge time for the spell, down tot he point where it might make sense to use it to try to get out of serious trouble (if you can spare the round to activate it, and then survive long enough). Having five points in it makes it an instant to use, though you still have to wait for it to charge up.
- Fourth skill... I admit I don't have any *really* good ideas here. Possibly a passive that extends the duration of the second skill's invis? Possibly make the second skill instant after all, and put the invis part here? Possibly putting in something to protect against silence and/or manaburn? possibly something to give some sort of interesting buffs on teleport?

[AlexanderR]

So, I have a silly question...

Why is mana still mage-specific?

Regenerating mana is easy, you just have to find some equipment with small amount of regen, which doesn't even have to be worn during fight, unless you want to use the rune. As long as you have some amount of regen, playing regen-less class is no different from Alchemist or Necromancer: cast few spells, use the rune, retreat. In fact mana is much more accessible for non-magic classes, than equilibrium for non-wilders. Without Fungus or Call trees there are no means to reliably maintain sane level of it. Also, IIRC, different built-in resource regeneration rates exist for some other classes/resources as well.

[Sirrocco]

not so true for equilibrium...
- It's not for non-wilders by any stretch, but the slime tree also offers solid equilibrium regen.
- I believe that equilibrium regens while on the overland map (at least it did last time I checked). If your equilibrium use is modest, and you have a decent will, that can be plenty all by itself.
- If you aren't trying to keep antimagic shield up, Resolve provides a fair bit of equilibrium regen

I see your point about the gearswap answer, but that almost makes it worse. Now it's not that you can't get a low level of default mana regen - it's that you have to remember to swap gear out all the time. Essentially, once you get to mid levels, the only way it's different from giving non-mages low levels of mana regen (ie, not enough to matter a whole lot in combat, but enough to recover given rest) is the annoyance of gear-swapping, and maybe forgetting to swap back.