Some feedback from an angband dev

[5k17]

Aeryn also tells you you have to do the Prides, and does not indicate that you should wait with them. And some of those other dungeons are not at all closer to Gates of Morning than the Prides. It's not too far-fetched to assume that the Prides are about as difficult as the other dungeons.

Yes, and? Your assumption was wrong, you entered the pride, you saw what was there, you chose to stay and you died. If that happens that's your own fault.

Hey, I'm not the one who started the "it's (un)obvious where you're supposed to go" line of argument. I dislike leaving a dungeon before finishing it, though.

If you don't know the limits of what your character can and can't handle, that's again, your own fault, and death is a good learning experience.

I learn what my character can handle by trying, shortly retreating if the enemy is too strong, and trying again until either I or the enemy is dead. If my level is within the zone's level range, I assume being defeated means my character is too weak overall, I chose the wrong tactics, or the RNG just decided to throw an unusually nasty enemy at me. Until after trying the Prides several times, there's no reason to assume it's any different there.

[belmarduk]

Aeryn also tells you you have to do the Prides, and does not indicate that you should wait with them. And some of those other dungeons are not at all closer to Gates of Morning than the Prides. It's not too far-fetched to assume that the Prides are about as difficult as the other dungeons.

Yes, and? Your assumption was wrong, you entered the pride, you saw what was there, you chose to stay and you died. If that happens that's your own fault.

3. Every pride has a horrifying entry room full of casters/enemies that should be an obvious tip that you shouldn't be there

No, it's just an obvious tip that it will to be dangerous. If you're a sufficient level, there's no reason to assume you can't/shouldn't do it.

If you don't know the limits of what your character can and can't handle, that's again, your own fault, and death is a good learning experience.

In all honesty I'm getting the sense that the complaints are basically "I want tome to be like Angband/Nethack where once I get to the midgame I've already won". The fact that we can lose so easily in ToME when so close to the goal objective is part of what makes the game so appealing. Difficulty is consistently high throughout.

[ohioastro]

I've played this game many, many times and I know the drill quite well. Insulting me because I'm not "hardcore enough" is missing the point. I'm saying that games that people find frustrating are games that they don't play. If you have a bunch of people coming in and saying "I experienced this" you're not helping if you tell them that they just weren't good enough or smart enough. This game is clever but it either doesn't give new players guidance on where to go or the advice that it does give is wrong. I'd like to see this game succeed and attract a wide audience. I think it can.

That's why I think it's important to provide a coherent storyline and to set clean expectations for characters. What happens out east is a good example. It would be easy to have the quest giver in the SunWall warn people that the prides are very dangerous (thus encouraging other exploration first.) You could put in a hook about the guardians in the west. This is good design. There is something similar in the west - there should be quest hooks for the random dungeons and people should be directed to finish the starters, not to go to much more difficult second tier ones.

My comments on the final battle (based on a number of winners and toons who've reached it) were in a similar vein: if it's going to be much, much harder than everything else before it you need a second fresh chance (e.g. make the first encounter them going to the gate and give you a chance to level up, regear, etc. and face a final battle.) Or it needs to be tuned closer to where it was a few versions back (where your helper doesn't die almost immediately, as now, for example.) Because people are not going to tolerate taking 40 or so hours to get wiped out for a low chance of a win - this will generate massive negative feedback on Steam.

[darkgod]

Calm down people, textual communication can seem to carry meaning that was not intended

Anyway I'm always listening to all feedback dont worry and obviously the endgame is something I watch with special interrest.

Although I do not agree with you about the starting dungeons, they can be used to levelup a tad more but once you did your two quest ones you should be ready to tackle the tier2 zones, it was created this way.
Remember zones scale within a certain level range, so going in at 10 or 13 doesnt change much actually (some would say it's easier to be lower level but taht's an other debate).

As for the endboss, if Aeryn dies too quickly this is a bug and I'll check it out

[SageAcrin]

Oh, yeah, I'll chime in to agree that some of the zones are harder at higher levels on occasion.

I tend to do Sandworm at around 14 because any higher means the Corrosive Sandworms and Gravity Worms become relatively common. Those things are no fun at all. Assassin Lord's place has a fragile spot around L10 where it's more doable than around L15, too, due to when Assassin Lord learns abilities, IIRC. There's probably a lot more little effects like this that I haven't been clearly sure on yet.

(Also, yeah, Aeryn dies really, really fast now. The only way I've kept her alive more than 20 turns is by getting Elandar to aggro me instead of her. She can fight Argoniel quite well, but Elandar pulps her very fast. It's been like that since the Staff got upgraded, and Argoniel getting some Prodigy skills made it go a bit faster too.)

[PureQuestion]

The Sandworm lair is the big one, yeah; doing it earlier cuts off all the giant ones, which can make a big difference.

[ohioastro]

Calm down people, textual communication can seem to carry meaning that was not intended

Anyway I'm always listening to all feedback dont worry and obviously the endgame is something I watch with special interrest.

Although I do not agree with you about the starting dungeons, they can be used to levelup a tad more but once you did your two quest ones you should be ready to tackle the tier2 zones, it was created this way.
Remember zones scale within a certain level range, so going in at 10 or 13 doesnt change much actually (some would say it's easier to be lower level but taht's an other debate).

As for the endboss, if Aeryn dies too quickly this is a bug and I'll check it out

Thanks. In practice it always helps you to get the extra gear and experience from the other starters.
For what it's worth, my usual order is

Basic two starters
Run to Derth for the Arena (a hook for newbies would be nice)
Remaining starters
Run around for alchemist quests, dodging adventurers; trigger assasin and logger camps.
Second tier dungeons (except daikara)
Urkis and most random dungeons (except celia, which I never do, elven ruins and spellblaze, golem)
Daikara
Spellblaze
Dreadfall
Reknor

Then, in east:

Spider
Underwater
Armory, wyrm
Return west; tannen and guardians; elven ruins
Orc prides
Broodmother, Volcano Race (usually skip the doppelganger one - broodmother can be done earlier)
Final series

[supermini]

If you have a bunch of people coming in and saying "I experienced this" you're not helping if you tell them that they just weren't good enough or smart enough.

You are arguing against a point no one has made.
Let me point you in the right direction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Frumple]

Starting down the regular internet forum path of sniping at each other probably isn't going to help T4 improve any

Anyway, sunpa-leader-person being a little more clear about the potential danger level of the prides in her texts is something I'd support, m'self. I like it when the game gives you really clear, blatant, pop-up style, warnings about what you're about to get into.

That way, I have a genuine reason to laugh at someone (including myself!) when they ignore the warnings (or just don't read the warning to begin with, that's always a good one) and try it anyway. "It warned you bro! It warned you! Ahahahaha!" Unjustified mocking isn't nearly as fulfilling, yo'.

[greycat]

If the game suddenly regressed to the garbage that is Angband, I simply wouldn't play it anymore.

Insulting a 20-year-old roguelike game because it doesn't play the same way as a modern hybrid RPG/roguelike game isn't helpful.

Although I do not agree with you about the starting dungeons, they can be used to levelup a tad more but once you did your two quest ones you should be ready to tackle the tier2 zones, it was created this way.

I agree with ohioastro on this one -- I never skip a lower-level zone. In fact, I also dislike the feature where you jump down to the last level of the tier 1 zones because they're "too easy". When I beat the boss on those zones, I walk back up through the zone and clear out the levels that the game skipped.

Just the possibility of missed escort quests by itself is enough justification for some of them. But that's not the only reason, either. I also want all that loot that the game wanted me to miss. In a game where the number of loot drops you get are finite (unless you farm adventurer parties or farportals, the former being dangerous, and the latter being oh holy mother of God get me OUT OF HERE), including store inventories, you need every possible bit of loot in order to have a chance of getting good stuff that will help you not die.

[NEHZ]

I only do additional starter dungeons if I consider my experience particulary low or have to many empty equipment slots. I only do more than one additional starter dungeon if I have a race/class/build combination that's particulary weak early on. (ie, for the experience points)
The stuff I find often won't help my game enough to justify putting in that much time.

[supermini]

You can find artifacts laying on the ground. I've found stuff like girdle of calm waters or wintertide vial just laying there. You can also miss vaults, and those can contain good loot. I never regret going back, even if I don't find anything. When you overlevel a dungeon clearing a level takes a few minutes at most.

[omeg]

While we're on topic of "additional warnings", it would be nice to have some warning when you get Impending Doom on yourself. It's a debuff that disables all healing and ticks a nice arcane DoT. If you don't notice it in time and retreat/teleport/use some of your escape options you're dead. I didn't encounter any other debuff that is as deadly and most people probably don't watch their status effects all the time. Maybe add some contrast/blinking/whatever to the icon so it's more noticeable.

[belmarduk]

If the game suddenly regressed to the garbage that is Angband, I simply wouldn't play it anymore.

Insulting a 20-year-old roguelike game because it doesn't play the same way as a modern hybrid RPG/roguelike game isn't helpful.

This thread was literally started by a developer of a 20 year old roguelike barging in and telling everybody how the game needs to be more like Angband.

[bricks]

This thread was literally started by a developer of a 20 year old roguelike barging in and telling everybody how the game needs to be more like Angband.

And fizzix was almost overpolite, was upfront about his background, and raised a number of questions without insulting the game design. But I can see how comments like "Monthly is misspelled as montly in the donation page" could become inflammatory. I don't think fizzix even commented on this spat you're perpetuating.

DarkGod, the "you heart is pounding!" etc. messages could maybe use a touch-up. They tend to exaggerate danger to the point where I completely ignore them. I think I still get the warnings of impending doom when walking into Angolwen or Last Hope (though I can't play the latest versions at the moment).