Berserkers & Cursed: A bit too powerful

[itastelikelove]

First a general note - The number of winners doesn't necessarily prove that Berzerkers and Cursed are too powerful: just that they're fun and FAST. The only reason I haven't won with one of my beloved Summoners is that it easily takes twice as long to play with a cautious style. EVERY time I've made a serious effort with a summoner, there's been a new beta release before I can even get out of the Dreadfell (I'm not saying you should stop, though! I'm just saying...grrr...). And, for the record, I DID need infusions for my win. They aren't ALL ridiculously overpowered (although that was in b18. maybe with the global damage nerfs, it's different now. and maybe it would have been easier if i had noticed that curse that was making me hurt myself.)

That said...yeah, perhaps they could use a little nerf. I like a lot of the ideas going around for Cursed, but i haven't seen much proposed for Berzerkers. So here are a couple thoughts:

First - Don't take my damage away! The one-hit kills are what make Berzerkers so much fun. I would much rather take extra damage than lose that essential part of the Berzerker Experience.

Berzerkers are extremely strong and tough fighters that revel in the glory of brutal mayhem, blood and gore, etc., etc., and throw everything they have into the destruction of their enemies with little regard for their own safety. We've got all of the good bits covered, and I wouldn't want to see any of that disappear. So why not add more? Specifically, more recklessness. The only time this part of the shows up in the class so far is the Berzerker sustain. But by the end of the game, that's an insignificant penalty. And I don't think simply increasing that penalty would be enough (changing it to a % decrease might be a good move anyway, though).

I think a good way to show recklessness would be to increase their chance to get crit. Using increased crit rate highlights the reckless all-offense-no-defense style of Berzerker fighting, and damage in large bursts is harder for their regeneration to overcome. And if the chance to be crit increases further with %Fatigue, that should make equipment selection a bit more interesting as well.

I think there could be a whole tree built off the idea of Reckless Fighting. A few ideas:

Recklessness - passive - Your chance to crit increases by 5-15%, and your chance to be crit increases by 5%+(1/2 Fatigue)%. Give this to all Berzerkers at level 1.

Blow for Blow - passive - When you are crit, your chance to score a critical hit against the target that crit you increases by 5-15% (reset after you crit the target).

Momentum - passive - Any time you crit an enemy, your crit damage multiplier increases by 1-5% for 2-3 rounds.

Masochism - passive - Any time you are crit, you regain 5-10% of max Stamina.

Reckless Charge - active - Charge, like Rush, then auto-crit. Dazed for 5 turns after.

Scream of Rage - sustained - When you take damage equal to 30-15% of your max health from a single attack, you have a %chance to unleash a horrible scream damaging all in a cone.


I know that's a lot of extra damage for a class that doesn't need it, but...it fits the class well, and there needs to be something to compensate for the increased vulnerability. And imagine the hilarity of Berzerker duels!

Any other thoughts on Berzerkers?

[Grey]

On the theme of recklessness, perhaps the whole Bloodthirst tree should require that you wear no body armour? Naked 'zerking exists in other roguelikes to amusing effect, and certainly fits the theme of the class. I'm not sure how well the passive talents can rely on equipment changes though.

[Sirrocco]

Rather than "no armor", perhaps it should just be "no heavy armor". Losing the armor defense fits and makes sense. Losing the equipment slots (with which you get things like stun protection and so forth) is just suicidal.

Also, it might be nice to have a character type that's specifically looking for leather gear other than just the stealth-based rogues.

If you want to include naked 'zerking, that would need its own whole tree (probably mostly passives) to try to make up for the things that you'd lose from not being able to fill your armor slots. Perhaps something on a tattoo theme?

[Grey]

Rather than "no armor", perhaps it should just be "no heavy armor". Losing the armor defense fits and makes sense. Losing the equipment slots (with which you get things like stun protection and so forth) is just suicidal.

That was rather the idea. The passives could get a boost to match perhaps, but Unstoppable is already godlike enough to justify this. I'm only suggesting the main body armour equipment slot, not every armour item. One can still wear boots and gloves and be a crazy naked zerker!

[Sirrocco]

Ah. Indeed. If all you're losing is the body armor, then it does work pretty well. Make some of the berserker skills buff up a bit when not wearing body armor (so that you aren't just swapping the armor out when you want to Unstoppable) and make Unstoppable itself depend on nudity (and automatically go into cooldown when you do take the armor off, rather than being immediately available) and that might work out pretty well.

Of course, the "no heavy armor" version also works. Depends on the image you want, really.

[Grey]

The image I have is of a naked female berserk with a toned and tanned body dripping with the blood of her enemies. Mmm...

But perhaps that's just me :-/

[martinuzz]

Well, the cursed characters I've played so far, all died to Bill, I didn't manage to get them out of the starter dungeon. Perhaps, I should grind them up and down the levels more, but I don't like grinding.
So, while I can agree on them needing a nerf, after reading this discussion, please take care that this nerf does not make them even harder in the beginning of the game.

Just a random thought:
Give them an 'insanity meter'. If your hate exceeds 10, your insanity meter will slowly fill up when you gain more hate.
When your insanity meter fills up, your willpower (and maybe your strenght as well) will suffer a (serious?) penalty. Insanity can only be cured by resting, implying your hate will fall as well. Harsher variant: insanity can only be cured, while resting with hate 0

[itastelikelove]

Eliminating body armor would probably work just fine, but i think that would feel a little too forced. Instead of saying "you can't have that", I'd rather say "you can have that if you want, but you REALLY won't like it". I think Fatigue would be a good way to handle that: heavy and massive armors really add a huge chunk of Fatigue, so any penalty based on Fatigue should discourage heavy armor use. Especially if the penalty is steep enough.

And if you don't like the idea of berzerkers running around in robes...just imagine them wearing great relics of the ancient arcane arts as enchanted kilts or loincloths.

[ohioastro]

People have great difficulty getting cursed characters through the first levels - if you look at the level distributions the class is one of the weaker ones in the early game. (Anorithils, actually, are statistically the strongest class; the only reason they aren't at the top of the charts is that only 1/4 as many people try them as zerkers and cursed, largely because you need to reach level 30 for the unlock.)

Weaken cursed in the endgame and you'll end up with another class like the rogue - 800 starts, almost no characters above level 30.

I'd really suggest using the character stats page and tagging classes which seem weak and buffing them up - rather than taking down the stronger classes. And also not adding more classes until you do some balancing/tuning of the existing ones.

[darkgod]

I'd really suggest using the character stats page and tagging classes which seem weak and buffing them up - rather than taking down the stronger classes. And also not adding more classes until you do some balancing/tuning of the existing ones.

And again, this is not about nerfing powerful classes, this is about making sure that nobody can *TRIVIALIZE* the endgame.

[Sirrocco]

On the topic of "how to not hork over the Cursed entirely", I'd note that making the lifedrain a static number rather than a percentage does absolutely nothing prior to level 12, and is actually helpful from about 12-20 (at least) - as the damage you'd be doing should be larger than the tiny percentage of (at that point) relatively low amounts of enemy life.

Out of curiosity, are there any non-Cursed skills that deal damage or heal based on a percentage of enemy total health?

[Marcotte]

Out of curiosity, are there any non-Cursed skills that deal damage or heal based on a percentage of enemy total health?

There is Static Field, for wyrmics. And it also scales with Willpower too.

[edge2054]

Echoes from the Past does also but it's based off current life vs. max life, i.e. low hit point targets take more damage.

[Wombat]

Rather than "no armor", perhaps it should just be "no heavy armor". Losing the armor defense fits and makes sense. Losing the equipment slots (with which you get things like stun protection and so forth) is just suicidal.

That was rather the idea. The passives could get a boost to match perhaps, but Unstoppable is already godlike enough to justify this. I'm only suggesting the main body armour equipment slot, not every armour item. One can still wear boots and gloves and be a crazy naked zerker!

I really like this idea since it seems to fit the "reckless" concept of the class.