Buffing bad prodigies

[astralInferno]

In my experience, the secrets of telos staff is 100% not worth it. It was not just worse than randarts, it was actually less useful for this one specific character than its components.

I think someone on IRC was considering it on an ogre reaver because of the blight bonuses tho.

[bpat]

While Naghyal's graphs are interesting, they probably shouldn't be considered when talking about how good prodigies, but rather just note how popular they are. For instance, there is absolutely no way that Unbreakable Will is worse than Draconic Will, Lucky Day, or even Garkul's Revenge. However Unbreakable Will has no requirement and Garkul's Revenge has a difficult requirement so that could have an impact.

Notably good prodigies that are much better than their popularity implies include Flexible Combat, Legacy of the Naloren (way better than ICCTW for damage), Swift Hands, Cauterize, Draconic Will (7 value?!), Hidden Resources (probably best prodigy on Necromancer and Paradox Mage), and Garkul's Revenge (okay it's pretty bad but there's no way it's the worst Willpower prodigy).

Notably bad prodigies that are much worse than their popularity implies include Blighted Summoning, Unbreakable Will, Draconic Body, Elemental Surge (33?!), Fast as Lightning (who even takes this?) and Meteroic Crash. ICCTW, Superpower, and Irresistible Sun are also worse than their popularity implies but they're actually okay compared to the others I listed.

[HousePet]

How good something is does influence popularity though.

And if something is unpopular or too hard to get, that is still a good reason for improving it.

[ibanix]

Opinions thread.

^ I have to agree with this.

That said, there is one single Prodigy I haven't been able to figure out why it is taken, unless there are no other valid options: Lucky Day.

The +40 Luck bonus translates into: 16 accuracy (before scaling); 16 defense (before scaling); +12% critical hit; and +7 to each save (before scaling).

By time you hit L30 and can take these, the actual bonuses for the rescaled values are going to be *seriously* less. Hell, you can get better bonuses than these from some single items of equipment!

[HousePet]

Its so you can get 100% evasion with a Halfling! (No we should buff Luck.)

[bpat]

Really don't understand why calling it an "opinions thread" adds anything. By that logic we may as well delete the entire ideas forum because it's all opinions. It's a thread started because I have opinions on how to fix prodigies, yes, but to say that my criticisms of bad prodigies are just opinions is unfair. You can feel free to take bad prodigies if you want, but there's no reason that other players should have to deal with limited selection of decent prodigies because some people think that bad prodigies aren't bad.

Lucky Day is bad but its 12% crit is way better than irredeemable prodigies like Unbreakable Will and Tricks of the Trade.

[ibanix]

Lucky Day is bad but its 12% crit is way better than irredeemable prodigies like Unbreakable Will and Tricks of the Trade.

Yeah, I totally don't need a free prevention of a mental effect every seven turns.

/sarcasm

[Micbran]

Really don't understand why calling it an "opinions thread" adds anything. By that logic we may as well delete the entire ideas forum because it's all opinions. It's a thread started because I have opinions on how to fix prodigies, yes, but to say that my criticisms of bad prodigies are just opinions is unfair. You can feel free to take bad prodigies if you want, but there's no reason that other players should have to deal with limited selection of decent prodigies because some people think that bad prodigies aren't bad.

Lucky Day is bad but its 12% crit is way better than irredeemable prodigies like Unbreakable Will and Tricks of the Trade.

I agree. Opinions thread. What you think is good/bad may be different from what I think is good/bad which in turn may be different from what... 0player thinks is good/bad.

[HousePet]

I think Unbreakable Will is excellent.
Being basically silence immune is very useful as an undead.

[anonymous000]

Really don't understand why calling it an "opinions thread" adds anything. By that logic we may as well delete the entire ideas forum because it's all opinions. It's a thread started because I have opinions on how to fix prodigies, yes, but to say that my criticisms of bad prodigies are just opinions is unfair. You can feel free to take bad prodigies if you want, but there's no reason that other players should have to deal with limited selection of decent prodigies because some people think that bad prodigies aren't bad.

Lucky Day is bad but its 12% crit is way better than irredeemable prodigies like Unbreakable Will and Tricks of the Trade.

I agree. Opinions thread. What you think is good/bad may be different from what I think is good/bad which in turn may be different from what... 0player thinks is good/bad.

When it comes to game mechanics, whether a prodigy is good or bad can be a solid discussion which involves purely logic and facts, like what ibanix and HousePet had commented on Unbreakable Will. The long discussion string here with so many people voicing out their thoughts about some particularly lackluster prodigies more than proves there are some prodigies that should have been made better. Making these prodigies more useful and more interesting eventually make build choices more diverse and TOME a better game, so why not?

[bpat]

From my and other high-level players' experiences, I've come to the conclusion that the only prodigies on this list even considerable on a serious (Insane/Madness) run are ICCTW, Superpower, Temporal Form, Worldly Knowledge (only if unlucky with escorts, in which case I'd usually restart), Mental Tyranny (only on Doomed), and Never Stop Running. (Insane and Madness are the only difficulties where balance is really relevant since any race/class/build combo should do fine on Nightmare, as demonstrated by Shesh's Antimagic Archmage Nightmare win). You can take Unbreakable Will or Tricks of the Trade and have it work and that's great, but that doesn't mean that they are in a good spot right now and shouldn't be looked at for adjustment. Anecdotal evidence of something working decent isn't a good indicator of whether or not it should be adjusted. On my first ever win, I ended with a Sun Infusion and an Infusion of Wild Growth, but that doesn't mean those Infusions are good and couldn't use some buffs. I beat Insane with a Corruptor back when it scaled harder and >2k damage crits were common, but that doesn't mean that Corrosive Worm and Poison Storm didn't need buffs.

I can't prove that Unbreakable Will is obsolete when Draconic Will exists, just like I can't prove that AM, AB, and PM are among the most powerful classes in ToME (I'd say top three but Reaver is a contender), but that doesn't make it not the case. Game design and balance isn't a perfect science, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to think of ways to improve this game.

I have opinions on these prodigies so I guess that makes this an opinions thread, but to reduce it to that without responding to the actual ideas presented here is dismissive and unproductive. I would have preferred to have this thread be a place to brainstorm how to help tweak the balance of prodigies that I, and many others, believe to be underpowered. I would appreciate if rather than discussing whether or not Unbreakable Will or Lucky Day are trash, you could instead give feedback on the ideas I posted. And saying all these prodigies are fine because some people take them and don't lose does not count as feedback.

[ibanix]

Welp, thank you for discounting all of us who like to play on Normal....

[ibanix]

Here's a feedback idea:

Not all Prodigies (or talents, or classes, or races), have to be equally good. Some can be better. Some can be worse. Some can be niche. Some can be unreachable for a current class/race/playthrough.

Some might just be there for flavor or challenge value.

These are all OK things.

The only 100% solid reason I see to change a prodigy is if there is an extremely strong reason to show that there is almost no reason to even take said prodigy, in the sense that it can be shown that there will be a convincing reason to take another one every time. Lucky Day seems to fit that; I can't figure out when another prodigy would be worse (but if you know, go ahead and tell me).

Actually, the other reason to change would be if said prodigy was so incredibly boring from flavor/lore value that it didn't contribute anything to the game. I don't think we have any of those right now - Wordly Knowledge might be close.

[ibanix]

My other feedback is that you are buffing every single prodigy (unless I misread one somewhere), and general power increases without proportional balance is not something I like. If you propose changes that attempt to keep power balance, I'd be more interested. This mainly applies to prodigies with heavy use. Prodigies with very little use or well-agreed flaws could suffer from changes that provide a general buff.

[bpat]

Ibanix that logic can be used to never patch this game again. I can present reasons why every single prodigy I listed here should never be used in serious builds, aside from the few I mentioned in my previous comment and maybe Irresistible Sun. Even though it's ridiculous it's gotten to this point, I'm actually going to do it. If your comments are going to end up being along the lines of "don't change anything because someone might want to intentionally use weak prodigies" then don't even bother. I'm not going to reply to any more of these comments saying we shouldn't change anything so please post elsewhere. Go make a post somewhere else saying "I like the prodigies the way they are and they should never change, except Lucky Day". Sorry if this seems overly harsh, but I really do not appreciate you saying that we shouldn't try to improve these things without even discussing the ideas I posted. After all your comments, you have not said anything

Also I am not trying to discount you for playing on Normal, but instead I am saying that something's performance on Normal should not be a measure of its viability. If this game were balanced solely for Normal, then Archmage would be buffed and Summoner would be nerfed and I would immediately uninstall. Balance simply doesn't matter much in Normal compared to high difficulties, because all builds are viable on Normal.

Now in response to your most recent comment, which is actually decent feedback, I actually agree with you that we should avoid power creep. This is why I tried to keep my proposed buffs mild. Ones that may be too strong are Bloodspring, Draconic Body, Windtouched Speed, Arcane Amplification Drone, and Through the Crowd. If there are any others, please let me know and give a countersuggestion if you have one.

To all the people who've given me feedback besides "don't change things", I'm going to try to read and reply to all your suggestions soon.

Anyway, here goes with the reasons I believe all these prodigies to be underpowered. Please do not respond to this with saying that a specific one is not underpowered, but rather comment on the actual, specific, ideas presented in my OP and other commenters' replies.

Massive Blow: Worse than Windblade in every build.

YSBMW: Worse than Windblade in every build.

Automated Reflex System: Worse than Windtouched Speed for Wilders, worse than basically any good offense or defense prodigy for all classes.

Giant Leap: Does nothing an Inscription can't.

Roll With It: Cauterize, Draconic Body, and Bloodspring are better defense.

Through the Crowd: Does basically nothing lol.

Windtouched Speed: Global Speed doesn't do much for Wilders compared to other classes which can't use it, worse than Eye of the Tiger on all but Wyrmic and worse than Fungal Blood on any character with Fungus.

Armour of Shadows: Worse than other more versatile defensive options (Cauterize, Draconic Body, Bloodspring)

Bloodspring: Actually this isn't that bad, but it's a bit slow. This one is really close to being good.

Corrupted Shell: All that is useless without armor aside from the max life, not even close to as good as Draconic Body.

Draconic Body: This is actually okay, but it really should prevent you from instadeath. Mostly a fun improving change, it's
really close to being good.

Eternal Guard: Requires you to actually use Block lol.

Aether Permeation: This actually weakens your character lol, why would you even want to use this?

Arcane Amplification Drone: Tiny uptime, good at blowing yourself up, only useful to block hallways because other prodigies do damage better. Use Temporal Form or something instead. I think this is underrated actually but it really shouldn't hurt the user.

Blighted Summoning: Somehow makes your summons worse because they waste a turn using terrible abilities. Only exception oddly is Oozemancer, who just silences his summons anyway lol.

Mystical Cunning: Arcane Poison is worse than Crippling and Numbing, and Gravity Trap isn't good enough since the nerf.

Revisionist History: It's actually okay but it's tedious and doesn't protect you from instakills. Worse than Cauterize probably.

Spectral Shield: Requires you to actually use Block lol.

Garkul's Revenge: Worse than Temporal Form.

Lucky Day: Worse than Temporal Form.

Mental Tyranny: Worse than Temporal Form except for proccing Madness with Doomed.

Meteroic Crash: Stun's okay but three seconds is weak for a prodigy. Also destroys walls uncontrollably which you never want.

Range Amplification Device: Pointless because range extension doesn't help much, and definitely doesn't help enough to warrant 60% fatigue.

Spell Feedback: Requires you to be Antimagic lol. Also overkill because mages are already easy as Antimagic (hopefully). Also Fungal Blood is way better on Fungus classes.

Unbreakable Will: Never better than Draconic Will on autocast.

Elemental Surge: Unreliable, cooldown way too long. Just take Cauterize or Temporal Form or something instead.

Endless Woes: Unreliable, low numbers. Just take Cauterize or Temporal Form or something instead.

Fast as Lightning: Wonky Probability Travel is not impressive.

Secrets of Telos: I've seen many randart staves better than this.

Tricks of the Trade: Merchant randarts are too good to pass up.

Tricky Defenses: Requires you to be Antimagic lol. Antimagic Shield wouldn't even be good if this was innate so why would you want this? Also Fungal Blood is way better on Fungus classes.