There are some enemies that will hunt you down, making a range 11 perfect a lot worse than a range 99. I've had Vault enemies chase me down as soon as I opened the door as well as Atamathon, though admittedly you won't be fitting Atamathon very often.
In addition, occasionally foes can have sight range of more than 10. I only actually know it happened once (could've happened a lot more and I just killed them without realizing), with Dragon Orb od Command boss, but rares could quite possibly have the same thing.
Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, maybe.
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Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Fair enough. I gave it some thought and I decided that 9 was optimal. More so, I think that if you add a category point, the range should increase to 10 and maybe 11 if you get enough bonuses to said category. That, along with the bonus to Harvest, would justify (for some players) adding a category point for mastery.
You're a caster class and you're unlikely to spend too much time in close-range combat. As a result, 9 should be sufficient to get away from nearly every enemy. More so, if you take a huge hit, you'd still have the potential for Chance of Life to trigger, which also includes a teleport. Even if it didn't trigger though, you'd have a 1-turn cool-down and could thus, immediately cast it again.
I think this is a very strong teleport, especially with all of the status-effect recovery options… you'd be unlikely to be stranded.
I feel pretty good about the balance of this. It's thematic, offers a different play-style, and some undead/non-undead options. I don't think it's overpowered now. I'm happy with this category although I'm still curious as to everyone else's thoughts.
Ultimately, I'm hoping Housepet will incorporate this into his Necromancer add-on and maybe some day, the base game itself. We'll have to see what he says first, ha ha.
You're a caster class and you're unlikely to spend too much time in close-range combat. As a result, 9 should be sufficient to get away from nearly every enemy. More so, if you take a huge hit, you'd still have the potential for Chance of Life to trigger, which also includes a teleport. Even if it didn't trigger though, you'd have a 1-turn cool-down and could thus, immediately cast it again.
I think this is a very strong teleport, especially with all of the status-effect recovery options… you'd be unlikely to be stranded.
I feel pretty good about the balance of this. It's thematic, offers a different play-style, and some undead/non-undead options. I don't think it's overpowered now. I'm happy with this category although I'm still curious as to everyone else's thoughts.
Ultimately, I'm hoping Housepet will incorporate this into his Necromancer add-on and maybe some day, the base game itself. We'll have to see what he says first, ha ha.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Uh, you can just walk away. You don't teleport from near death and then just stand there.Red wrote:There are some enemies that will hunt you down, making a range 11 perfect a lot worse than a range 99. I've had Vault enemies chase me down as soon as I opened the door as well as Atamathon, though admittedly you won't be fitting Atamathon very often.
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stinkstink
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Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Dimensional Step was mentioned, but not that it was originally non-instant and worked outside LoS. Edge considered it too effective as a get-out-of-jail-free button and nerfed it into its current incarnation. Old DimStep was roughly on par with Stone Wall if there was something to teleport behind.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
I'm wagering that having only one formal teleport versus two (and a semi-third in Probability Travel) on a mage will not be "too effective." More so, it's relatively pricey and considering the availability of Manaclash and generally low-mana pool for Necros (with all of their sustains and high-cost skills), I think it's a good balance. There are plenty of opportunities to get stranded… especially before lvl 4.stinkstink wrote:Dimensional Step was mentioned, but not that it was originally non-instant and worked outside LoS. Edge considered it too effective as a get-out-of-jail-free button and nerfed it into its current incarnation. Old DimStep was roughly on par with Stone Wall if there was something to teleport behind.
However, it should be easy enough to nerf should anyone bother to code it… as I mentioned, I'm pitching it to HousePet for his Necro+ add-on. I guess we'll see.. I mean, if anyone else wants to take a crack at it, go for it, ha ha.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Donkatsu, I was running a Ghoul and had not bothered buffing speed in any way. (Sun Paladin Ghouls are tankier than Shermans, so why would I bother?) So as long as they saw me, they'd slowly but surely catch up, which I usually didn't want because there's a reason to run away.
And in the case of the dragon, he had a few abilities that had AoE and the AI was smart enough to hit me with it past range 10. I think it was Slow, though, so the damage wasn't anything that'd kill you and he had a tendecny to just sit there and let me walk back away, as you said. (Combine his AoE extra range smartness with actually hunting me down smartness, though, and suddenly running away becomes just about impossible without a teleport or similar.)
So I amend my earlier statement. A range 99 perfect teleport is still better than a range 11 perfect teleport, but a range 11 perfect teleport is the main step from "Mobility Tool" to "Escape Tool" and is still insanely useful.
And in the case of the dragon, he had a few abilities that had AoE and the AI was smart enough to hit me with it past range 10. I think it was Slow, though, so the damage wasn't anything that'd kill you and he had a tendecny to just sit there and let me walk back away, as you said. (Combine his AoE extra range smartness with actually hunting me down smartness, though, and suddenly running away becomes just about impossible without a teleport or similar.)
So I amend my earlier statement. A range 99 perfect teleport is still better than a range 11 perfect teleport, but a range 11 perfect teleport is the main step from "Mobility Tool" to "Escape Tool" and is still insanely useful.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
I don't think that Necro really needs more toughness and the undead bonuses are possibly a little too big?
Conveyance is mobility category but you are replacing it with something that only has the basic conveyance trick.
Conveyance is mobility category but you are replacing it with something that only has the basic conveyance trick.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Yes. One mobility trick… but it's a good one.
Technically there are two others (movement from Will to Power and the random teleport from Chance) but they're less reliable.
You think the bonuses are too strong, huh? Hmmm… I don't think that ought to be too hard to fix but do you have any suggestions?
Technically there are two others (movement from Will to Power and the random teleport from Chance) but they're less reliable.
You think the bonuses are too strong, huh? Hmmm… I don't think that ought to be too hard to fix but do you have any suggestions?
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Nothing major, but Chance of Life is effectively doubled for Undead.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
That's true that it doubles it but every character, undead or not, can use Harvest or gear to classify themselves as undead. Thus, it's a largely negligible difference.HousePet wrote:Nothing major, but Chance of Life is effectively doubled for Undead.
Perhaps the 51% is too high? Maybe 36% is better?
I was also thinking of adjusting the Will to Power bonuses… I was thinking maybe eliminating the damage reduction entirely and adding an effect only for non-undead such as an infusion duration bonus. The other thought was adding a bonus to mana-regen such that a Necro could walk around without a manasurge rune… I'm not sure though. Your point about toughness is well-taken. What other bonus would be good to replace the damage reduction? I was even thinking about a push-back effect or something that would prevent anyone from closing the distance with Rush or whatnot but that seemed like too much power.
All in all though, I'm actually pretty happy with this category. I think that Harvest works really well with a skill like Sacrifice in combination with either or both sustains. You could summon your minions, use Harvest, spend the immune turn making a bone giant, sacrifice it for the damage shield and then operate off the bonuses from Will to Power.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Damage affinity, maybe? This might not work well with Will To Power, but then again, it's worth at least thinking about.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Will to Power already offers a damage affinity to those classed as undead (which Harvest can make so for everyone), specifically Cold and Darkness.Red wrote:Damage affinity, maybe? This might not work well with Will To Power, but then again, it's worth at least thinking about.
Housepet's criticism is sound. The Necro doesn't really need to be significantly tougher and I'm nominally taking away some mobility although I think Phased Soul and Chance of Life provide ample escape options and Will to Power offers a nice mobility bonus. I'm not concerned about the mobility issue.
What the Necro really needs is synergy. To that end I think Harvest and Will to Power work beautifully with Sacrifice and finally makes the latter skill worth investing in. Even Chance of Life has a nice synergy there, with a perpetual chance to heal… The aforementioned Will to Power affinity bonus should be a really nice synergy with Dark Empathy as it would make your cold damage spells less destructive to minions.
Also, Vampiric Gifts and Chance of Life would combine for a 400 mana-sink but one with great survivability. Given the high cost of Necro spells, this could preclude some of the more expensive sustains like Premonition. Again, I'm not trying to OP the class.
More so, I think the entire generic category has great synergy with Lichform and Blurred Mortality. I'm not sure I can do much better for synergy with a generic.
There are still other issues about the Necromance that I think I have a reasonable solution to: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=42555
Ultimately, this generic would improve the class thematically, enhance synergy, and I don't believe overpower it. I'm advocating hard for this!
Still, perhaps I'll take a third crack at it...
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
I removed the undead restriction on the fail-rate of the Phased Soul and replaced the Constitution-based damage-reduction buff from Will to Power. I also tweaked the numbers and scaling on Chance of Life and added a manasurge like effect to Harvest, changed the cost, and reduced duration of immunity. In addition, I shortened the name of Harvest of Life to just "Harvest" as it seemed punchier.
Here is Take #3:
Necromancy:
1. Harvest:
Use: Activated
Range: N/A
Cost: 40/1 - reduced each talent point invested until it is 1 mana. Cost is 99.99% of life.
Use speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 24
This spell immediately reduces your HPs to 1 in exchange for removing up to 8 status effects (at lv 5), gaining absolute immunity to all new status effects AND damage for 1 turn at lvl 1. A category point will increase the duration of immunity to 2 turns at lvl 5.
At lvl 3, this treats the character as undead for up to 10 turns.
This ability does not work if you're already below 1 HP.
2. Phase Soul
Use: Activated
Range: 5-9
Cost: 30/60 mana
Use Speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 8/1
This is a perfect, intermediate teleport, albeit an expensive one. It works outside of line of sight with 0% fail.
Range increases at lvl 2, 3, 4, and 5. At lvl 5, it's also targetable. The range continues to scale past talent lvl 5 and with mastery will hit 10.
In addition:
If you're below 0 life (either with equipment, Blurred Mortality, or Heroism infusion, etc.), then this teleport's cool-down is reduced to 1 although the mana cost doubles and the range is reduced by half.
This also gains a bonus from Essence of the Dead… increased range.
3. Will to Power:
Use: Sustain
Range: N/A
Cost: 0/1-5 per turn while active
Use speed: Instant
Cool-down: 30
A sustain akin to disruption shield… available only when you're at or below 0 life. If you're classified as undead (gear, race, or lichform) then an additional bonus appears. Drains 1-5 mana per turn while active.
Provides an added movement speed bonus between 100-300%. Scales to Strength and maxes around 110.
Provides an added combat speed bonus between 50-200%. Scales to Dexterity and maxes around 110.
Provides telepathy: undead at range 4-12. Scales to Constitution and maxes around 110.
Undead only (through Harvest, gear, Lichform, or race):
Provides a bonus to darkness and cold affinity equal to 15%. Scales to Willpower and maxes around 100.
As soon as you recover above 0 life, this sustain collapses. All benefits linger for an additional 3 turns.
4. Chance of Life
Use: Sustain
Range: 10/20-26/51
Cost: 150 mana
Use speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 50
As long as this sustain is active, if you're dropped to or below 0 life (whether or not it kills you although this can save you from death, if it triggers), there is a maximum "26/36%" chance that you'll be "resurrected" and gain 36/51% life, mana, reduced cool-downs, and teleported randomly within "x" range.
The max life, cool-down, and mana recovery scale with magic and talent point investment. For living characters, the max is 36% but for undead classified characters, the max is 51%. The cool-down reduction only affects skills currently on cool-down.
The max chance to trigger a "resurrection" is 26% for normal characters and 36% for undead or those classified temporarily as undead. This scales with talent point investment. This will not trigger if you're currently at or below 0 life. Can only successfully trigger once per turn.
Here is Take #3:
Necromancy:
1. Harvest:
Use: Activated
Range: N/A
Cost: 40/1 - reduced each talent point invested until it is 1 mana. Cost is 99.99% of life.
Use speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 24
This spell immediately reduces your HPs to 1 in exchange for removing up to 8 status effects (at lv 5), gaining absolute immunity to all new status effects AND damage for 1 turn at lvl 1. A category point will increase the duration of immunity to 2 turns at lvl 5.
At lvl 3, this treats the character as undead for up to 10 turns.
This ability does not work if you're already below 1 HP.
2. Phase Soul
Use: Activated
Range: 5-9
Cost: 30/60 mana
Use Speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 8/1
This is a perfect, intermediate teleport, albeit an expensive one. It works outside of line of sight with 0% fail.
Range increases at lvl 2, 3, 4, and 5. At lvl 5, it's also targetable. The range continues to scale past talent lvl 5 and with mastery will hit 10.
In addition:
If you're below 0 life (either with equipment, Blurred Mortality, or Heroism infusion, etc.), then this teleport's cool-down is reduced to 1 although the mana cost doubles and the range is reduced by half.
This also gains a bonus from Essence of the Dead… increased range.
3. Will to Power:
Use: Sustain
Range: N/A
Cost: 0/1-5 per turn while active
Use speed: Instant
Cool-down: 30
A sustain akin to disruption shield… available only when you're at or below 0 life. If you're classified as undead (gear, race, or lichform) then an additional bonus appears. Drains 1-5 mana per turn while active.
Provides an added movement speed bonus between 100-300%. Scales to Strength and maxes around 110.
Provides an added combat speed bonus between 50-200%. Scales to Dexterity and maxes around 110.
Provides telepathy: undead at range 4-12. Scales to Constitution and maxes around 110.
Undead only (through Harvest, gear, Lichform, or race):
Provides a bonus to darkness and cold affinity equal to 15%. Scales to Willpower and maxes around 100.
As soon as you recover above 0 life, this sustain collapses. All benefits linger for an additional 3 turns.
4. Chance of Life
Use: Sustain
Range: 10/20-26/51
Cost: 150 mana
Use speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 50
As long as this sustain is active, if you're dropped to or below 0 life (whether or not it kills you although this can save you from death, if it triggers), there is a maximum "26/36%" chance that you'll be "resurrected" and gain 36/51% life, mana, reduced cool-downs, and teleported randomly within "x" range.
The max life, cool-down, and mana recovery scale with magic and talent point investment. For living characters, the max is 36% but for undead classified characters, the max is 51%. The cool-down reduction only affects skills currently on cool-down.
The max chance to trigger a "resurrection" is 26% for normal characters and 36% for undead or those classified temporarily as undead. This scales with talent point investment. This will not trigger if you're currently at or below 0 life. Can only successfully trigger once per turn.
Last edited by Delmuir on Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:40 pm, edited 9 times in total.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
It's starting to look like a really viable categoy now. I especially like the way you handled Phased Soul-cutting the range in half is still enough to speed away, but suddenly the mana cost is starting to matter a bit more.
Two questions, though-what do you mean by "empathy"? Do you mean telepathy? And is there any way to add something to Phased Soul so it gets something at level 3? I really hate seeing totally empty levels, and as it stands that's what level 3 of Phased Soul is right now.
Two questions, though-what do you mean by "empathy"? Do you mean telepathy? And is there any way to add something to Phased Soul so it gets something at level 3? I really hate seeing totally empty levels, and as it stands that's what level 3 of Phased Soul is right now.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Another crack at a Necro Generic… this one is good, mayb
Good catches Red.
I fixed the telepathy error and I just changed the range of Phase Soul so that it starts at range 5 and increases with each point invested. I also put a minimum in for Will to Power on combat and movement speed bonuses.
I'm really happy with the category. Lot of good feedback from everyone.
About Phase(d) Soul… thanks. I'm really fond of that teleport idea.
I also like Harvest a lot, including the manasurge replacement which allows for some real flexibility with runes although you have to make sure you have something to regenerate mana lest you get caught at 0 and can't use Harvest. Still, I really like that function as well…
The entire undead and sub-zero life functionality of this category seems really fitting for the Necromancer. I'm actually reasonably proud of this and now I just need to convince someone to code it for an add-on or DG to add it to the game (although I'm sure he's busy enough).
I fixed the telepathy error and I just changed the range of Phase Soul so that it starts at range 5 and increases with each point invested. I also put a minimum in for Will to Power on combat and movement speed bonuses.
I'm really happy with the category. Lot of good feedback from everyone.
About Phase(d) Soul… thanks. I'm really fond of that teleport idea.
I also like Harvest a lot, including the manasurge replacement which allows for some real flexibility with runes although you have to make sure you have something to regenerate mana lest you get caught at 0 and can't use Harvest. Still, I really like that function as well…
The entire undead and sub-zero life functionality of this category seems really fitting for the Necromancer. I'm actually reasonably proud of this and now I just need to convince someone to code it for an add-on or DG to add it to the game (although I'm sure he's busy enough).
Last edited by Delmuir on Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.