democracy based wrmic remake thread READ BELOW BEFORE VOTING

[Suslik]

Just a side-note:
Instead of lame caster spell + passive + utility + breath I really think it may be better to go breath + passive + utility(or crowd control) + breath augmentation(sustain/passive). Why? Because currently wyrmics are one of the most point-juggling-prone class. You have to put a lot of points into lame nukes before you get breaths and after that point lame nukes only occupy space on your skill panel.

[astreoth]

thanks grayswandir I'll check it out

and Suslik I can agree that most draconic aspects do make you get a lot of bad talents before the breath but your proposal wouldn't change that much what with needing to get the whole tree for full breath power.

[astreoth]

okay I tried it, liked it and would recommend it now for bugs.

yeah with the appetite sustain I saw no indication that the bite on hit thing was happening graphically or in the log and I'm not quite sure what its supposed to mean by that either is it an extra attack, a weaker swallow is that chance for all attacks or only swallow.

and when I advanced the sand tree enough to get the swallow stacks capped it gained a .14 thing that made it keep dropping into the negative I have a screencap of this if you want.

[Nori]

I hate to reduce diversity but is it necessary or wanted to have a tree for each elemental aspect?
I mean it can really be overwhelming and kind of too much if you do.
Fire, Cold, Lightning, Sand, Venom, Multi-Hued....

Can you have a talent tree that doesn't require the prior skill? Because if you could then it could be broken out differently.
For instance, a talent tree just for breath attacks, another one just for passive dragon badassery etc...

[astreoth]

try out greys addon its got the general dragon badassery down good and the aspects aren't encroaching on each other would advise you to stay away from the sand aspect though its bugged.

[grayswandir]

Ah, sorry, I made an actual thread over here: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=41604
You should probably restrict bug reports to that thread, and discuss what aspects of it you'd like to see/not see in the main game here. That was my intent, anyway.

[Planetus]

To first understand how to fix wyrmics, we need to agree on what's wrong with the current and what the results should be.

For problems, I suggest:
STATS: All wyrmics need to invest in Wil and Str for talents, resources, and combat power, regardless of build. Anyone using a conventional weapon probably wants Dex for accuracy. Anyone in melee at all needs at least some Con for HP. In fact, even a caster build would probably want Con for HP, given that you're primary 'defense' is the massive perma-regen from the Fungus tree, which means you need enough HP to tank the damage for a little while to begin with. That's 2 ABSOLUTELY PRIMARY stats (especially for a meleer, which I think wyrmics are mostly supposed to be), and two secondary stats (ignoring Cun for crits). All the other classes that have their stats so spread have some talent that boosts some stats. Wyrmics don't. Either their builds should be separated so a player can focus more, or they should get something that boosts some stats off others.

TALENT TREES: Wyrmics have 5 primary elemental talent trees, each of which is based on Wil to unlock talents, but each ends with a powerful ranged talent that bases damage off Str. Most also have some earlier talent that bases damage off of either Str or weapon damage (modified by Physical Power, modified by Str). That means each and every tree individually encourages a wide spread of talents. On top of that, each tree has a mix of melee and ranged talents, which means wyrmics are forced to go at least a little mixed in terms of melee/caster builds.

ELEMENTAL THEMES: Wyrmics get 5 elements (well, maybe more 4.5 due to Fire being so much physical) initially unlocked. It's probably intended to mix between several of them, since none of them give resistance penetration of any kind. That means elemental specialization is out of the question, since you'd then be almost useless against any enemies highly resistant to that damage (well, I don't think anything's highly resistant to physical, but aside from that). The last talent of a locked lvl10 tree gives you a little resistance penetration to each of those elements, but not much. All in all, this means the structure is themed around spreading your talents thin across 5 trees, plus any stamina-based melee trees you want.

What I think wyrmics should be:
Powerful draconic melee warriors able to call down a plethora of elemental deaths upon enemies in close range.
Devastating draconic ranged warriors able to wipe a whole battlefield clear of enemies by invoking a variety of naturally-themed (i.e. tornadoes, blizzards, thunder and lightning, earthquakes, etc).
Swift and cunning draconic warriors able to make any environment their playground.
Probably NOT all of the above, though, or even a vague smear-attempt at all of the above.

What this means to me is that there should be several relatively distinct builds available. Anyone who wants to could still spread their points wide, but the option to specialize in melee vs ranged should be clear. That probably means specializing in Str or Wil with the other being a distinct, but still useful, secondary.

Some suggestions (some of which I've made elsewhere):

Wyrmic Body (Str): Includes generic-elementally-themed melee attack boosts and defensive benefits. Maybe something like a +armor&def talent, melee attack skill?, +saves/resists/status recovery, +general physical capabilities. For that last one, or maybe make it the first, I'm thinking something that boosts your Wil and Cun based on your base Str, and giving you the ability to wield a 2-H weapon in one hand when 5 points are invested.

Wyrmic Mind (Wil): Includes generic-elementally-themed mind-based caster boosts. Maybe something like +general mental capabilities, +global/move/mind speed, +heal mod and status recovery, +elemental damage/resist/pen%. For the first one, I'm thinking it will boost your Str and Dex (or Con?) based on your base Wil (yes, meant to dove-tail with the Body talent) and at level 5 do something that inflicts dragon fear. Maybe as an activatable talent, or maybe as a chance bonus to all mindpowers?

Wyrmic Breath (???): First talent gives all elemental breath attacks, maybe on a single cooldown between them, or maybe each on a unique cooldown. The subsequent talents boost those breath powers, give secondary effects, and maybe boost elemental damage/pen.

Wyrmic Wrath (Str): Includes various elementally-themed melee attacks. Probably avoid physical element just because almost all melee attacks do physical anyway. Things like Ice Claw and Venom Strike for example.

Wyrmic Nature (Wil): Includes various ranged natural-elemental-themed attacks, things like Earthquake, Call Lightning, Blizzard, Firestorm/Volcano, and some kind of Acid Bog. Not sure how to include more than 4 elements. Maybe work it like the Breath tree, with each one unlocked at the beginning, and the other talents boosting them?

Wyrmic Cunning (???, maybe Cun): Various elementally-themed utility skills. I'd love to see one be the ability to blend in with natural surroundings (active temporary stealth/invis, maybe only in natural terrains). Lightning Speed, Burrow, and maybe Ice Wall would be other examples.

Maybe a lvl10 locked elemental tree for each of the melee/caster/cunning builds? Collectively, this means that wyrmics can focus on either Str (with Wil for resources, Fungus, and maybe a few ranged skills), or Wil (with Str for armor and maybe a few melee skills). The Cun tree currently looks like it'd be more an addition to the other two than a primary build tree, but maybe someone else could figure out a way to fix that. At the same time, each build gets one tree that unlocks several elemental attacks, while also getting some encouragement to go cross-build (the stat boosts making it easier as well as giving nice feedback if you do).

Anyway, all in all, just a ballpark idea throw.

[HousePet]

We could make the first talent not a lame caster spell, but a good one. It doesn't have to be a lame nuke.

I disagree that you need lots of stats for a Wyrmic.
Dex is not needed for conventional weapons. The Accuracy talent works fine.
Con is not needed for any character that gets into melee. You only get 200 life for maxing it. Wyrmics already have great life.

[HousePet]

Got around to checking out grayswandir's addon.
I had considered a layout similar to that mixed with the current Alchemist Infusion system.

Then we could group talents together into things like Claw Attacks or Breath Attacks.
Elements would be determined by whatever Drake Aspect you had active. High levels would allow more than one aspect active.
I can draw up a basic design if anyone is interested.

[Planetus]

Housepet, that sounds like a very interesting idea, especially the multi-hued option you suggest at higher levels. Would that allow you to use each elemental breath separately, or one breath that splits normal damage between them, or one breath that does full (or at least more than 50%) damage in each element? The first would lean things toward spamming, which is what the multi-hued dragons do today. The second would seem largely useless unless there are other benefits to choosing an element (which I assume there are), thereby removing the breath attack from the considerations there (although, if it split the damage, but could apply multiple status effects at full power, that could be cool). The third could be very powerful.

I also love the flight and landing suggestion that was given by Parcae2 in the other thread here.

[HousePet]

Probably the third option.
Spamming is kinda lame.

[grayswandir]

With regards to breath spamming in general: We could make it give a debuff (Out of Breath) when you use it, that either inhibits breath attacks (-1 stacking all breath range, can't cast breaths at too low of a range), or just gives a general penalty that would make breaths worse (- Strength?)

[Davion Fuxa]

grayswandir sort of touched on a passing thought that I was thinking about maybe getting to later in my thread but I'll throw it out here now for some initial chewing on.

What if Breaths used the Air Capacity Resource - ie, the one that goes down when you are Drowning or getting Constricted? If Wyrmics had like a cost of 70 Air per Breath (Before Items and other Talents that could increase Air Capacity are considered) then they would have a much harder time spamming their breaths.

[jotwebe]

Yeek wyrmics ftw, then.

Agreeing with HousePet that Wyrmics' problem isn't stats, Cursed do fine without a stat talent as well.

I like the idea of sustaining aspects like the new Alchemist's elements.

It might be interesting to have a locked sand aspect (there are no sand wyrms or dragons, so it's an odd one out) that lends itself to a physical fighter style and a locked multihued aspect that's better for a more castery build.

Instead of unarmed I could see them having a mindstar-using combat tree that isn't lightsabers but draconic-themed things.

I don't like the "2-handed weapon in one hand" thing that's been cropping up. What does that have to do with dragons? If any class should get that (and I don't think it's a good idea really), it ought to be some warrior class that has that as its main thing.

[Davion Fuxa]

Last I checked, you have to pick up a Resonating Diamond from a certain Sand Wyrm (or Dragon). It definetely would be more interesting to see a Sand Wyrm enemy though - maybe unlike other Dragons and similar to Sand Drakes, a very Solidarity type of Dragon enemy.