Psionic class lore

[astreoth]

okay I kinda agree with most of your proposal there parcel but one thing that really bothers me is you saying that psionic and wilder powers are relatively new things compared to magic.

considering how horrors are psionic based constructs of amakathel if anything nature is the newer one heck considering how cursed auras curse of corpses can raise the dead study of the powers of the afflicted may be the root source of necromancy, so honestly all three power sources probably more or less came about at that same time.

I think the only reason their isn't much talk of psionics or nature gifts in the past is that comparatively magic is by far the easiest of the three power sources to learn while retaining your sanity so until the spellblaze happened there wasn't much reason to go into the others I mean why spend years meditating to hone your connection with nature for the ability to summon a dog, yell loudly, or eject some of your own Oozing flesh at foes.
when magic training comes with immediate spewing of fire and lightning and if your lucky enough to be born with magical talent then its an even better ratio of effort to immediate power.
and psionics yeah unlike nature and like magic you can be born with some kind of innate talent for this but considering how their isn't exactly a school for psions and how psionic potential isn't as flashy as magic potential people with psionic potential likely wouldn't even know unless something triggered their potential like dogoroth caldera or becoming an afflicted so unlike the large schools of magic or tribes of wilders psionics are largely isolated incidents with the afflicted probably being the most common since it takes training that would be nearly impossible to find to become a proper psionic (no untrained psionic class) while the afflicted only need trauma to get started

so yeah it may seem like wilders and psions are relatively new things but thats only because nature has gotten a lot more popular now that everyone hates the far easier route of magic

wait your nature mind thing really make sense for wilders only alternate theory I can think of for equilibrium is that using nature talents changes your body over time and that equilibrium is a measure of how much you can change before your body starts to give out under the strain since a lot of wilder talents seem based more on using your already altered body rather than drawing on eyal.
but your theory handles the existence of summoners and nature escort rewards so moving on

if equilibrium is a measure of natures willingness to give you power then how does a wyrmic restore their equilibrium by swallowing their foes whole and alive?

[parcel]

okay I kinda agree with most of your proposal there parcel but one thing that really bothers me is you saying that psionic and wilder powers are relatively new things compared to magic.

considering how horrors are psionic based constructs of amakathel if anything nature is the newer one heck considering how cursed auras curse of corpses can raise the dead study of the powers of the afflicted may be the root source of necromancy, so honestly all three power sources probably more or less came about at that same time.

Horrors are not all psionic constructions of Amakthel. Though Amakthel, God defeated, has retreated deep below the Deep Bellow and has changed with time a tad. Amakthel rules down there and some things have followed along with his form. Minds have always existed, as I said, in part with the existence of horrors in mind. Even inert matter is regarded as mental by advanced solipsists. Nature is not new, but its mental capacity and ability to understand things and to intend that certain things occur is new. The Spellblaze provoked some defensive responses and selected for some other shifts in the ecology, and now the M'E is awake. Partly this has been connected with the wilders themselves, who started to bring sentient thought patterns within reach of the nascient mind. Psionics and wilders are mostly new, however, due to the vanished popularity of magic. Wilder know-how has made great strides, especially as Nature moulds itself to accept their devotion. Psionics follow after the wilder template which points ultimately to the mind, but derive from those who don't want to be subservient to Nature in any way. Necromancy is pure arcane. Curse of corpses is a new thing and a reflection of Amakthel's presence, but it's not as far removed from the arcane as you think. Amakthel comes from an earlier primordial time in which the elements and the mind were closely intertwined, especially when you consider that we are talking about the Mind of a God. Remember generally that horrors are NOT uniformly psionic. Luminous horrors basically use traditional spells. The old way of being blurs the boundaries between what seem like distinct forces in the present.

if equilibrium is a measure of natures willingness to give you power then how does a wyrmic restore their equilibrium by swallowing their foes whole and alive?

Same way as always, by satisfying Nature that they intend to help it maintain Nature's balance in the long term if they get more powerful. Wyrmics are major fans of dragons, and Nature favors the dragon way of being over traditional sentience. Eating your foe just because you don't like them and you are hungry is a very dragon-ish thing to do, and Nature approves. For one, you are entertaining dragon-urges, and for another, Nature is perhaps more on the side of predators than prey when it comes to nearly-conscious attitudes. At the moment of a kill, Nature emphatically sides with the predator, with a glee quite like that of the predator itself. On the other hand if you just do human sword-fighting stuff, you are doing sentient stuff, unnatural stuff. Nature is not really sure what you are doing or whether it is good for Nature or not, but is willing to trust the Wilder that has put careful work into developing a bond with Nature. If a wilder simply exploits nature without end, Nature will withhold the meditative link and thus will never 'forgive' you for using its power, unless tricked by a sufficiently sophisticated artifact. Nature is more feeling than thoughts; it's a really persistent force and is as powerful as an aquifer of mana, but it really is not that smart.

[Doctornull]

First off, this is a setting in which gods are priority targets for termination. So be careful. Don't go making Nature into a god unless you want to see her dead and looted.

Second - the dead gods are actually a really neat source for Horrors and Psionics in general. Perhaps what powers Psionics are the dreams of the dead gods, and what fuels the darker Psionic arts and the powers of the Afflicted are the dead gods' nightmares.

Perhaps the power of the divine dreams has always existed, but it wasn't weaponized until the gods were dead and angry about being dead, and their dreams turned sharp, the jagged shards of their aspirations forged as swords by the lesser races which followed.

As to what Horrors are: they're the result of at least one kind of corruption, possibly multiple kinds for the really icky ones. The mad dreams of one or more of the dead gods would certainly be enough to explain some types of Horror. For other types, other things may have been the agency of corruption, possibly including the incursion of Demons or Blight itself.

Regarding Nature powers, I'd say they're magic. Not arcane magic, of course, but magic none the less. It might be possible to draw a spectrum of magic from most arcane to least arcane, and it might look like:

Vim --- Mana --- Positive/Negative --- Paradox --- Equilibrium

Notice how similar Paradox and Equilibrium are in practice: both allow the user to leverage talents unnatural to his species, both incur failure chances as he ratchets up his debt, and both are used by those who purport to serve the source -- by incurring debt with that source. (Wilders "serve" nature but incur nature debt; Chronomancers "serve" reality but incur paradox.) They'd both be some kind of hypocrite except for the fact that they do both tend to save the world.


The other spectrum I'd draw would be one which runs from mind to body:

Psi --- Hate --- Stamina

Hate is interesting because killing (and gaining Hate) also gains you a special kind of regeneration, and your Hate bar determines your healing factor in general. Psi is not tied to the body, and is in some ways the opposite of the body (in how Mindslayers can gain Psi by taking damage, and how Solipsists can gain Feedback from taking damage) -- in contrast, Hate level determines physical effectiveness for many Cursed talents. At the most esoteric end, the Solipsist can deflect Physical damage into Psi; at the most physical end, the Berserker can briefly ignore physical damage thanks to a few Stamina talents; in the middle, the rampaging Cursed can ignore physical damage through a combination of Hate and rage. All of these resources grant a way to overcome the physical, but their methods vary from enlightenment to blind fury to rigorous training.

- - -

Anyway, to recap:

The dreams of these dead gods might become weapons in their deaths: sweet dreams are NOT made of this. Welcome to Psionics, don't let the bedbugs bite.

[astreoth]

okay you got me on the horrors bit, and the nature being new bit kinda worded that wrong was talking more nature in its present form anyway you've made a lot of good points about nature however their are two points on which I disagree

Nature is more feeling than thoughts; it's a really persistent force and is as powerful as an aquifer of mana, but it really is not that smart.

okay here your kinda saying magic and nature are two different forces when their really two different methods of getting power from the same source both ultimately draw upon maj'eyal for energy, magic is pretty much just plucking upon the ley lines or veins of eyal to directly tap elemental energies, while wilders through meditative communion with eyal strengthen their natural attunement to the ley lines(best example of this is stone warden amping dwarfness up to 11\10) and build attunements to new ones letting them gradually change their bodies to mimic the natural beasts of eyal (wyrmics elemental resistance gain, Oozemancers passive talent that rearranges their internal organs) and when needed lets them tap these ley lines for more immediate effects (healing touch, leaves tide, summoning)

so yeah mages are like parasites to eyal, while wilders have more of a symbiotic relationship with eyal and the spellblaze gave maj'eyal more awarness of these relationships

totally agree about the great strides in wilder know how thing though but wilders have probably been around as long as magic especially since the orcs historical accounts clearly mention orc wilders before the spellblaze

Psionics follow after the wilder template which points ultimately to the mind, but derive from those who don't want to be subservient to Nature in any way

okay I really don't like how much of a connection your saying there is between nature and psionic while I agree mental training is needed for nature powers their is one clear divide between the two psionics don't tap maj'eyal's ley lines for power as we know the three power sources from the current lore their is literally more of a connection between magic and nature while I'll admit that could just be because of the lack of lore on psionics, however when we examine psionics talents we see they only mention sapping power from their immediate surroundings and the storage of said power as their power source. from that I see two theory's for psionic powers.

one that psionics is an extremely advanced form of the techniques used to draw and manipulate the power from ley lines that works by manipulating energy already in the enviroment which makes some sense since most psionics classes can easily hijack the energy from others spells or wild gifts (cursed's sanctuary saps any incoming energy, doomed's feed drains the spell before its cast, mindslayer's sheilds can suck energy from a blow and send it right back through auras)

and two that psionic powers are the result of being naturally attuned to a specific lay line that gives psychic powers like how dragons can breath fire and stuff because they have a natural attunement to the elemental ley lines in which case if psionics really have become more common since the spellblaze then their relationship to eyal would be more like a natural healthy part and or immune system since unlike those parasitic mages or those wilders who want to trick it into thinking their a dragon or something the psionics are the only ones doing what their supposed to do.

[Narindor]

Ugh, this thread is changing the entire way I think about 'Eyal, but keep it up, this is wonderfully entertaining.

[astreoth]

okay doctornull very interesting idea there about the dreams of dead gods but considering how deep bellow and the heart of the gloom went with the mouth I'll give that god dream corruption can give psychic powers but the force is so corruptive I doubt its the root cause of psionic forces even the sweeter dreams of the mindslayers and solipsists should be corruptive if the dreaming one is any kind of indication and the afflicted aren't nearly mutated enough to be affected by divine nightmares. and if linanilli is any indication even dead the gods corpses should be overflowing with flat out insane power if they were the source of psionic powers I can't imagine that power not seeping through to the psionics and as far as preexisting lore goes don't think they got any access to power outside their surroundings which may tap divine powers sapped from horrors but thats about it so yeah divine dreams can definitely give and or awaken psionic potential but their not the only thing that does that and the connection ends there no continued draw on divine dreams for power.

divine dreams definitely sounds interesting as its own power source though would like to see that.

this has nothing to do with the current discussion but your spectrums of external power sources and internal power sources has got me thinking where exactly do souls fit into that. the necromancers animus tree shows souls have some power but how exactly does it work?

[HousePet]

The Spellblaze greatly hurt Eyal in a way that had never happened before.
Eyal reacted in an unconscious way to adapt to the damage that magic can cause.
The two sides of Nature, nurturing and predatory supported the development of two obscure power types.
Antimagic is an offshoot of Nature. It is the stick to protect itself from dangerous magic.
Psionics is an offshot of Nature. It is the carrot giving power that doesn't damage Nature as badly as Arcane.
To say that Eyal created these is misunderstanding. Eyal itself doesn't think or act. Every living thing of Eyal does though. These new powers weren't created, they evolved.
Mind powers can arise from any strong mind. They use existing energy from around them, unlike Nature and Arcane which call the energy into existence by manipulating the elements of reality.
Nature manipulates these elemental threads in a way that works with the arrangement that exists on Eyal. Arcane twists the threads in ways that are not natural for Eyal. Blight deliberately perverts the structure.
Afflicted powers are invoked unconsciously or emotionally, whereas Psionic powers are invoked deliberately with conscious thoughts.
Unconscious thoughts and emotions are older and simpler than conscious thoughts. As such, they appeared earlier.

[parcel]

Necromancy is generally about harnessing the dead, generally by arcane means. The mere existence of souls is a testament to their power. The basal animus of a living creature sits in the body and the body is primed to move it, and will wither away after death unless caught and manipulated. Souls are still in the process of dying and they usually aren't the entirity of the original mind of the diseased, so when used as a power source they tend to act as a sudden flare unless put into a second bodily form, be that a corpse or an ethereal construction in the case of banshees and the like. With extreme care, necromancers can copy an entire facsimile of the original mind but technically speaking this is still the death of the original soul and is only a nearly perfect process when the original body is used as a house. Hence lichdom is a relatively difficult thing to achieve, and as a byproduct the method creates an affinity for an exotic element that is abundant on the moon but not on ME.

I would caution that horrors should not be viewed as corrupted, especially if some aspect of the primordial horrors is connected with the recent spread of affliction in the ecology. The afflicted are quite apart from the contemporary order, but they are in fact quite natural, unlike the direct forcing of archmages or the rapid seeping of Blight into M'E ever since the Spellblaze made the boundary between planes more permeable. The primordial forms, and to an extent even the Gods themselves, may have been outcompeted, but Nature has no fundamental issue with them if they can evolve, adapt, and dominate the surface once more. The Nature mind doesn't really understand them that well, but it doesn't really understand anything that well, and though the primordial forms would diminish its power for aeons if they came to dominate surface life, Nature could probably adapt to the new order and its primary concern is not the existence of the Nature-mind per se, but the preservation of the natural order.

Part of why Blight is so objectionable to Nature is that it is literally power from a parallel world. You could in fact say that Blight has a faint overmind or emergent-being associated with it as well, though this is not obvious since its main 'body' and 'mind' is not strongly present in this world. It does want in, though, and is actively trying to colonize the new territory. The Fearscape is in fact roughly analogous to M'E although the basic forces in play are somewhat different. The Gods, there, though, didn't lose their power in quite the same way and their descendants still reign (though they are not Gods); in particular, the 'horrors' of that world were never pushed into hiding in the deep earth because the environment remained relatively stable. If you think that the Spellblaze was a huge catastrophe for life on M'E, you need only look at primordial times to find events far more devastating. Part of why the Sher'tul were so smart was because the Gods of the 'Calmscape' (or whatever you want to call the plane in which M'E resides) created a really unstable environment around M'E because of the nature and power of their prime God. The Sher'Tul were created to be adaptable and their living circumstances forced them to become even more adaptable as time went on.

Chronomancy is about manipulating the spacetime threads in which everything is embedded. The spellblaze threw a lot of energy into the continuum, creating many more threads and easing the ability to shift things between them (much as it eased the ability to shift between this plane and the Fearscape), but it did not create chronomancy itself, as demonstrated by the ability of other beings to use the talents without problem in arbitrary farportal worlds. Rather, it created the circumstances which allowed Zemekys to take several loops from the near future to the far future to the moment of the spellblaze, thus developing the principles of Chronomancy and training others in the Art in order to manage the spacetime 'hot zone' in which post-blaze M'E resides. The vast energy in the local threads also allowed the transport of substantial material to a fixed knot in M'E spacetime, known affectionately as Point Zero. Nature has a gut feeling that Chronomancers are using some sort of arcane manipulation but the elemental manipulation itself is invisible to them because it does not use an elemental force that is directly analagous to the rest, though the mental manipulation involved in casting spells is exactly the same. Where there's smoke, there's fire, though, as far as Nature is concerned, so Nature hates chronomancy.

And yeah, Antimagic is an offshoot of nature as it has become sensitized to the arcane incursion and is developing an aggressive 'inflammatory' response. While originally it emerged in one of Nature's favored life-forms, a subspecies of dragon, humanoids are learning to harness it with Nature's help, and the antimagical intent is increasingly taking physical form as a living, pulsing slime. Dragons may be Nature's favorite children, but if you were to assign Nature a physical form, it would be that of a fungus. As I've said multiple times, Nature is powerful and subject to worship and has some intentions of its own, so could be called a kind of god, but is not a God in the ancient sense and does not have anything like full sentience. It is about as smart as a fungus, but like a fungus, its invisible threads are practically everywhere on the surface of M'E.

[The Revanchist]

Well put; I'm inclined to agree with that, parcel.

[astreoth]

okay here for two things first I got my history mixed up with the orc wilders in a previous post those are from the age of dusk/pyre closest lore mentions of pre-spellblaze wilders would be zigur being founded in the age of allure since the dwarves gave them money around then cause they were worried about the upcoming spellblaze, and a historical account from one of the first thalore of them participating in the earlier stages of the sher'tuls god hunt both likely employing wilders but neither saying it outright.
and for pre-spellblaze psionics yeah I got two things one is that in the last chapter of the spellblaze chronicles they fight bladed horrors and darkness horrors two variety's of psionic horror that Linaniil recognizes as scions of amakathel and while this is after the spellblaze its too early for these things to be recognizeable if their new and shows that amakathel has probably had psionic minions for a long time. and two is that the nagas/naloren are the only race aside from yeeks to employ psionics large scale and while I doubt the yeeks had the way before the spellblaze cause of their enslavement to the halflings the naloren could of started using psionics before or after the spellblaze and it would fit the theme of each elven subspecies specializing in a different power source if the naloren were the psychic elves.

oh wait just remembered the sholtar human sub race are renowned as good wilders and most of their lands were lost in the spellblaze so they were probably wilders before the spellblaze huh

also parcel agree with everything you say there but the bit on chronomancy there probably are things that could naturally use chronomancy before the spellblaze but it only became possible to magically tap temporal threads after the spellblaze this is why chronomancers cant go back in time to before the spellblaze point zero is literally what happens when you try to do that. now if there was a weaver wilder they may be able to gain time travel power that could surpass that limit but no guarantee they could I mean I know weavers can weave time but don't know about time travel.

p.s.
hey parcel just noticed you think the fearscape is another plane of existence its not the fearscape is a demon covered flaming rock sent to orbit eyal in order to get revenge on the sher'tul.
because the demons think the spellblaze was a deliberate attack on their world that was so devastating that urh'rok the demon god can just barely keep their whole planet from exploding and all they know is that the blast came from eyal which is sher'tul turf.
though the spellblaze did crack open the door for the demons a bit but that door isn't some kind of planar barrier its the planatery defense sheild that the sher'tul set up to stop meteors and alien invasions.

[Doctornull]

I would caution that horrors should not be viewed as corrupted, especially if some aspect of the primordial horrors is connected with the recent spread of affliction in the ecology.

Okay, a lot of stuff you're saying is contradictory to canon or unsupported, but this is just flat-out wrong in a way that should be obvious even if you only skim the lore. As an example, every Horror in the Deep Bellow dungeon is explicitly described as being a corruption of a specific creature (usually a Dwarf).

Anyone interested in Blight might want to check out http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=41029

Regarding Psionics, do note that there are more Psi powered Horrors than Mana powered Horrors. Dreaming and Nightmare horrors are explicitly based on Solipsists; Blade Horrors are moderately based on Mindslayers; and some other Horrors have a Psi skill or two (like the Bloated Horror's Mindsear). Psi powers may be "less Arcane", but they're still dangerous stuff, and they're clearly not associated with happy bunnies.

(On the other hand, note that Necromancers are associated with happy bunnies. Clearly the least scary path to power is Necromancy.)

[astreoth]

this arguing over the physics of a fictional world is fun.

gotta wonder though are the distorted creatures in the heart of the gloom and deep below just isolated cases, or are they the early stages of the more traditional horrors like the bladed or dream horror.
and if they are separate instances of divine corruption. then where do the traditional horrors come from considering how both the heart of the gloom and deep below have the same rotten mushroom walls, which couldn't just be corrupted plants considering deep below is an underground mine.
it may be possible that deep down the corruption of amakathel brings the very earth itself to life to fulfill his desires or maybe their just minions he had before dying that got corrupted through some kind of connection to him or something else entirely I dunno

anyway back to the original question of no in game lore explaining how psionics work and wanting to give grey and darkgod ideas to put in the game I have a proposal on the subject

you know how the last foe in zigurs trial is an orc corrupter and according to dwarven records the dwarves noted an orcish presence in the 115 year of the age of ascendancy and lost renkor in 120, (you start in 121) so zigur is aware of the orcs and considering the orcs powerful magic the dwarves may have contacted zigur or they may have found out about renkor on their own.
in the eyes of the ziguranth this presents a very dangerous resurgence of war with the orcs but also a very good opportunity. this dangerous opportunity lies in how both of the previous major wars with the orcs were won by pushing the boundaries of magic with the spellblaze, and atamathon neither really went as intended but neither could have been won, without magic.
if the ziguranth could end this coming third war without magic it would be a major show of nature's superiority over magic and the true danger for zigur would be if anglowen did outshow them as that would do a lot for acceptance of magic.

so in order to prepare for this coming war the ziguranth might set up a secret lab to develop new nature powers to combat the orcs
and this lab may discover that the psionic members of their order can use zigurs antimagic techniques as well as if not even more effectively than their wilders can as psionics requires the same stats as nature gifts and they don't have any other nature powers to strain their equilibrium.
so this lab may direct their research toward psionics giving an opportunity to explain psionic powers through the labs research notes.

I hope this thread does end up in causing an in game explanation of psionics.

[parcel]

I would caution that horrors should not be viewed as corrupted, especially if some aspect of the primordial horrors is connected with the recent spread of affliction in the ecology.

Okay, a lot of stuff you're saying is contradictory to canon or unsupported, but this is just flat-out wrong in a way that should be obvious even if you only skim the lore. As an example, every Horror in the Deep Bellow dungeon is explicitly described as being a corruption of a specific creature (usually a Dwarf).

Anyone interested in Blight might want to check out http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=41029

Regarding Psionics, do note that there are more Psi powered Horrors than Mana powered Horrors. Dreaming and Nightmare horrors are explicitly based on Solipsists; Blade Horrors are moderately based on Mindslayers; and some other Horrors have a Psi skill or two (like the Bloated Horror's Mindsear). Psi powers may be "less Arcane", but they're still dangerous stuff, and they're clearly not associated with happy bunnies.

(On the other hand, note that Necromancers are associated with happy bunnies. Clearly the least scary path to power is Necromancy.)

Never said that psionics were associated with happy bunnies or undangerous. They are obviously dangerous. Nature is still neutral toward psionic activities. It doesn't really matter the system of canon that you want to uphold; the necromancer's access-to-a-bunny-dimension fits into the game's canon about as easily as a toaster or a snake that punches you.

We may be cross-talking about what a corruption is in terms of a legacy TOME but just because a dwarf changes into a monster doesn't mean that the dwarf is 'corrupted' in the most obvious sense of the Corruptor and that class' chain of abilities. I doubt that's the case. I suspect that many of the successful horrors that are affiliated with the old gods have a parasitic strategy these days, and in some way take the form and capacities of their prey in a variety of ways that may kill the host and may not. The 'dwarves' of Deep Bellow are clearly dwarves in form only, and then only loosely. The thing that is in charge of the resultant body is definitely not a traditional dwarf.

Demons may be aliens, but I'd point out that they are alien in ways that the farportal worlds are not, and wherever you go in the farportal, blight seems to be an exotic, minority element. This is why I'd say that they are from another plane. They may have sent a big 'ol rock over as part of their expedition if destroying a threat makes sense as their intelligently-pursued strategy, but it still seems that the basic laws governing their world are quite exotic, and their technology extremely advanced in some respects compared to M'E civilization but quite pathetic in others.

[darkgod]

Interesting discussion

I must point out one thing though, there are no other planes (or nearly so, eidolon plane is debatable since he is so shrouded in mystery).
Demons are indeed aliens that come from an other planet; it's even in the same stellar system as Eyal.
But each planet can have different rules. Nature is an Eyal specific phenomenon for example, so is the specificities of Eyal gods; other worlds may (and do) work differently.

[parcel]

Thanks. Knowing what is firm allows us to focus on the malleable. What about farportal worlds, though? Those, together with the general assumption that the sun is a star in this universe, leads me to assume that the universe is quite homogeneous. If the gods are local and are responsible for lofting the sun, then gods arose everywhere. Is the farportal in the fortress somehow primed to take you to a place where you have a hope of surviving? If you asked to go to a truly random world, would you also find several worlds with fire-dominated terrain, abundant blight, and an animal ecology that derives much of its nutriment from standing in the shadowflame? Would you find yourself on worlds with celestial energies abundant?