Making the Breeding Pits Less Disgusting

[Grey]

This way lets everyone have what they want. It's not censorship, it's options. And there are a large mass of people quoted initially-way more than the people straight up defending it in this thread so far, in fact-saying they'd like that option.

It's already completely optional. It's just completionist gamers that feel the need to do the zone when they don't like it.

But we will add in something to make it more clearly optional. The paladin dialogue suggested was a good one - it makes little sense to just stumble on the breeding pits anyway.

[The Revanchist]

I'm (morbidly) curious... Would we have the same reaction to this sort of... Location if it were Human, Halfling or any other "good" race? Or is it just that Orcs are "evil" from what limited scope we have.

I'm all for having the Pit be more... Expected. Making it a clear, easily avoided choice just cements the complete monster mentality so much more. After all, you can't stumble upon it and try to justify it now.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

If ending the race inside was the mercy it is for the orcs, I'd be perfectly all right with the dark choice you make to save them, even if they were humans, halflings, etc.

As for the so called 'baby murder', if they're vicious enough to attack and come after us, how are we not right in defending ourselves? I mean, if this was a sci-fi setting and it was a cloning lab with genetic freaks in tanks, in varying stages of development, and these half-formed babies (or full formed, for that matter) burst out and crawled up to attack us, in vicious fashion, would we feel bad about killing them?

For that matter, the so called babies might well be contaminated and 'damaged' by the blight. It almost makes sense that the aggression in the orcs could be connected.

[Seian Verian]

I think that it might be a good idea to do something to make the fact that there's potentially triggering content in there clear beforehand, and that it's optional. However, I don't think there's necessarily any reason to cut any of that content entirely

[SageAcrin]

This way lets everyone have what they want. It's not censorship, it's options. And there are a large mass of people quoted initially-way more than the people straight up defending it in this thread so far, in fact-saying they'd like that option.

It's already completely optional. It's just completionist gamers that feel the need to do the zone when they don't like it.

No, no, no, no.

Roguelikes are extremely hard games that encourage a player vs game mindset-and ToME is no exception in this regard.

Saying "it's optional" when its current role in the game, in practice, is granting you the easiest source of Tier 5 gear, for the highest chance of surviving the Prides-which can be quite difficult, especially if you lack proper gear-is inane.

Most of the game is optional, but the amount of people skipping straight to Dreadfell and winning is very small.

If you want to go that route, there needs to be real rebalance on the gameplay end. Up the difficulty drastically and add a new zone to serve the Breeding Pits' current role, or massively up the gear drops from Ardhungol, or... well, there's options. But just brushing off the gameplay implications when they are why people object so much with "it's optional" solves no problems.

It's optional for me, or other good players. But to many players, passing up advantages ranges from a terrible feeling that they're creating risks for themselves that they don't need to, to an outright death sentence, depending on how good the player is. Just saying "that shouldn't be so" solves nothing.

Edit: Though, having said that, even then I don't feel like that answer will really work for players. Even if you warn them off of something being immoral... I'm not sure the immoral is the problem here. It's gotten pretty common for players to drown townspeople.

I think it's just the imagery more than the morality. If that's the case, then no amount of warning off players in any sensible, thematic way will actually keep them from going in and being offended.

I mean, I respect how people in this topic feel, but this is a game a random ten year old could pick up. It is on Steam, even. Maybe it should just default to being a little more friendly in that regard. Doesn't have to be removed, just something that people don't default to.

[Grey]

Yeah, the tier 5 item drops are a problem. Item drops in the breeding pits don't even make sense.

[Delmuir]

A couple of points:

1. The gear drops in this game are… kind of awful. You have crap gear endlessly and then suddenly you have all kinds of amazing gear, most of it no long useful to you as it coincided with finding even better gear. That reality makes the breeding pits (although this is an issue throughout the game) not as "optional" as is being suggested.

2. No area is really that optional given that this game discourages grinding.

3. Why does it have to be breeding pits or nothing? Why not make the breeding pits an event that pops up along with another event and you have to choose which event to go do. Then the other event isn't available to you anymore?

Maybe have a paladin show up and say "we found their breedings and we can end this war… but there's also this other crazy thing happening. Hey, can you help with one of those?"

4. My primary objection to the breeding pits is that the lore is designed to get us to sympathize with the desperation of the orcs but the game doesn't give us a chance to do anything other than "not murder their babies in this horrible sci-fi nightmare." Not really a great choice.

This is why I think the game is almost fleshed out enough to have an orc character. The Prides could act as proxy towns and they could have they own set of quests that results in them coming east early like a Sun Paladin. Instead of being ambushed after Dredfell, they could just hand over the staff and then "battle" for fun because "you've clearly grown so strong to have done this all by yourself" or some such nonsense.

The point being that if we're going to create a grey moral situation (rather than simple all good versus all evil) then give the player a chance to play both sides of it.

[overgoat]

I personally loved the lore and the dark aspect of it the first time I encountered it, but I can see the perspective of some that it might be too dark for some younger gamers. I think I like the option of being able to run the game in PG-13 mode when selecting difficulty for a new game. I don't think it would get used very often, but for those adults bothered by it or the 8 year old gamers whose parents actually monitor what they play it would be a good addition to be more inclusive.

[Zonk]

On the mechanical/gameplay issue of items...this area still has loot? I remember vaguely getting something, but thought it had been changed.

The orc mothers and children definetely should not be dropping items!

It *would* make sense to not have item drops in there, except for the first floor with the male orc guards of course. Then people who decide to skip on this would have to feel 'less bad' about missing out on drops and gold.

[SageAcrin]

I strongly disagree with simply removing the loot from the Pits without any replacement somewhere else in the game.

To give a short version in detail; Top tier gear is much more important for physical fighters than mages/mind classes(Much more of a jump in quality for T4/5 physical gear than other class gear).

Therefore, pulling a good source of T5 gear-before the fairly dangerous Prides, and especially before your first Pride, which, no matter which you choose, is usually the hard one-not only makes the game harder, but it makes it disproportionately harder for physical classes. It's imbalancing to the game in multiple ways at once, and really annoying to compensate for.

(If anything, there probably ought to be more tier 4/5 gear before the Prides than there currently is, not less.)

And, as mentioned, I still don't think it'd solve the problem. We're talking about new players here. By the time they know there's no loot worthy of note in the Pits, it's well too late for them not to be disturbed, if they're going to be.

[Delmuir]

I agree with the Sage… there should be more T4-5 gear earlier in the game. I'd argue that the distribution of its drops should be higher… once in a while, albeit rarely, it should drop on the occasional random unique monster, even fairly early in the game. The entire issue of encumbrance is a game mechanic predicated on storing items. However, it's a pointless mechanic because high-level gear NEVER drops early in the game so you never have to carry it around.

That being said, the source of gear should not be eliminated without a replacement...

[Grey]

The pits were added fairly late in development. Everyone survived fine without their loot before.

But if there is a loot issue then that's a separate matter.

[The Revanchist]

I have a proposal that may make it clear just what players are getting into, without the whole "killing women and children" quandary.

Have the "entrance" to the Breeding pits be a rather lucrative, high-value area, and the only way to progress being to pass through a "vault-like" door. In that it adds a popup along the lines of "beyond this door, you feel immeasurable pain, weakness and despair. You feel it would be best to turn back, and leave the horror behind the door uundisturbed".

Probably not taking that word for word, granted. Just something that conveys the following:

• a) Going further is going to be disturbing.
  b) The loot will not get better when you go further.
  c) ...anything else we want to add?

In case it wasn't clear, I would presume the entrance to the Pit is made more... Appropriate. As in, none of the "taboo" enemies until they push further along, through the door.

[Sirrocco]

I like that - and I'll go you one better. Have the vault doors be guarded, by a troupe of orcs, including a unique. Have said unique engage in a bit of a conversation with you right beforehand, where it basically lays out both that there's some pretty horrible stuff back there (the orcs look haggard and hollow-eyed, as if having to deal with horror a little too close at hand) and that they honestly believe that they are defending the last desperate hope of their race. When you kill him, you get another little conversation box where he basically says "Fine. You have slain me, but please... please spare the children."

Then modify the descriptions slightly to skip the multi-vulvaed whatever because seriously. Make them horrific in some fashion that isn't so directly out of someone's - directory.

[The Revanchist]

I like that - and I'll go you one better. Have the vault doors be guarded, by a troupe of orcs, including a unique. Have said unique engage in a bit of a conversation with you right beforehand, where it basically lays out both that there's some pretty horrible stuff back there (the orcs look haggard and hollow-eyed, as if having to deal with horror a little too close at hand) and that they honestly believe that they are defending the last desperate hope of their race. When you kill him, you get another little conversation box where he basically says "Fine. You have slain me, but please... please spare the children."

Then modify the descriptions slightly to skip the multi-vulvaed whatever because seriously. Make them horrific in some fashion that isn't so directly out of someone's - directory.

I like that a lot better. It doesn't even require the PC to be "special", in that they'd have had to sense the pain in the Pits. This way, there's a pretty clear indication that it's not pleasant.

I wouldn't mind an option, at that point, to yield to the Orc troupe, and be ejected from the zone. Or perhaps jut having their personal reaction change to Neutral?