New Class Idea: Plague Bearer

[overgoat]

Thanks for the feedback!

Plague Rats
Cluttering the playfield with many weak enemies can prove supremely annoying, however I like how the talents tie into their numbers.
Potentially give rats higher innate blight resistance to give them some presence before lv5?

These are weak enemies, but once you get into Infected Corpses they become your suicide bombers. Being weak is a good thing as they will be quickly killed and deliver blight damage and diseases.

Plague Master
Flat disease reduction with addition of 25% blight penetration sounds a tad too powerful. Potentially have higher disease reduction (up to 66%), but only of the actual enemy disease immunity.

One major fear I had with this class is the 100% reliance on disease mechanics. There are many enemies that have innate disease immunity and I thought the class needed a mechanic to get past this. Maybe add something where their disease immunity cannot go below zero?

Metastaze sounds like an inferior version of Catalepsy.

I agree Catalepsy is a better talent, but I thought this class needed a few more abilities to deal a large damage hit. Most of the abilities and diseases damage by slow attrition so I thought it needed a few more big guns. Maybe lower the cool down to make it more effective?

Replication is a good idea, but feels like it feels like the copy needs some unique quality about it.

No argument here. Definitely very vanilla in its current form. Maybe upon death it delivered a powerful non resistible disease? Maybe adjacent enemies get hit with Epidemic? Too powerful?

Ossification needs major buffing, 20% all resist against 20% global speed reduction is hardly worth it and the initial penality

This is just a movement penalty, not global speed. As long as you are stationary it isn't too big a negative. I agree a global speed reduction would be way too harsh

Hemophilia has a great concept behind it, but Im worried about the disease reduction here. Currently combing it with Virulence basically negates 100% disease immunity.

Same thought as with Virulence. This is was designed to give you a chance against the disease immune enemies but at the cost of letting them in very close. I was thinking with Virulence and Hemophilia combined you get to 100% immunity reduction, but maybe these stack too much?

Brain tumors are interesting, but the random nature can be frustrating. Potentially overpowered with Eye of the Tiger.

I didn't think about the Eye of the Tiger combination. Hmmm...

Blindness is amazing, but needs a better name

I was thinking of calling it Glaucoma, but was afraid players would just take it as an excuse to smoke up while playing

Dark Pact
This tree feels kinda bland und unbalanced compared to others. I thoroughly despise talents that work off of "every time you kill an enemy", as they are worthless against large singular enemies.

I went back and forth on this one and went with these as a thematic fit. I agree these are underwhelming in one on one boss fights.

[overgoat]

I was thinking the Plague Bearer class was a bit thin on the generic trees and came of with a new tree that mirrors the Conditioning tree, but with a Corrupter spin on it. I made it non disease specific as well so it could possible be made available to Reavers as well:

Corruption/Corrupted Fortitude (x1.30)

Corrupted Regeneration
Constitution 12
Use mode: Passive
Description:
When you are damaged your corrupted flesh responds to heal itself. After being damaged your body consumes VIM to increase your regeneration rate by 3/6/9/12/15 x 1.(constitution) and your healing modifier increases by 4/8/12/16/20 x 1.(constitution) for 3/4/5/6/7 rounds. This regeneration consumes 2 VIM per turn. If no VIM is available the effect will end.

Amputation
Constitution 20
Use mode: Passive
Description:
Sometimes losing a body part is not all bad! Your corrupted flesh is able to consolidate your maladies into a single part of your body which are then removed if damaged enough. When damaged for more than 25/22/19/17/15% of your total life 1/1/2/2/3 detrimental effects are removed.

Terrifying Presence
Constitution 28
Use mode: Sustain
Sustain cost: 10 VIM
Cooldown 20
Usage speed: 1 turn
Description:
When enemies look into your eyes they see the abyss staring back. After making a melee attack against you, enemies must make a mental save or be dazed or stunned. Chance to daze or stun increases with constitution. This sustain will end if you drop beneath 50/45/40/35/30% health.

Stream of Corruption
Constitution 36
Use mode: Activated
Usage cost: 0
Cooldown 50/45/40/35/30
Duration: 3/4/5/6/7
Usage speed: Instant
Description:
Your corrupted fortitude is so powerful it is able to completely fuel your powers for a brief period of time. While active all of your corruption abilities cost no VIM to use.

[grooog]

I thoroughly despise talents that work off of "every time you kill an enemy", as they are worthless against large singular enemies.

I wouldn't say "despise", but I generally agree with this sentiment.

There are few if any characters who have difficulty with a target rich environment. On kill effects can be spiffy, but in careful moderation. Their prevalence in other character classes sometimes is enough to make boss + minions an easier fight than the exact same boss all by himself.

[AlexMdle]

Idea for Dark Pact: Why not do something like Curse of the meek, combining the "on kill" effects with the ability to generate token enemies to kill? Maybe a 50% reduced effect if killing own Plague Rats for the on-kill effects?

[overgoat]

Idea for Dark Pact: Why not do something like Curse of the meek, combining the "on kill" effects with the ability to generate token enemies to kill? Maybe a 50% reduced effect if killing own Plague Rats for the on-kill effects?

Hmmm that is an interesting idea. If you received some return from the death of your rats that would definitely help with one on one boss fights. You could fall back and let your rats take the brunt for awhile and getting healing/VIM from their deaths. I think the percent of return from the death of plague rats would have to be low as you have a quite a few rats especially with the talent Call the Swarm. Maybe at TL3 you get a 10% return from rats which would scale up to 15% at 4 and 20% at 5? So at TL5 it would take five rats to die to equal the same as one enemy dying. This wouldn't be huge, but would be a relatively consistent form of health/VIM restoration.

[Planetus]

For Sympathetic Disease with sequential hits, the mechanics become pretty complex. On the one hand, this is a long-term sustain with no damage threshold or limit. That changes things drastically from a normal damage shield. On the other hand, you have to be in range of a diseased creature (which pretty much means first hits will get through 100%) and it will only absorb a portion of the damage. With sequential damage absorption, the damage absorbed by each enemy is reduced in the sequence. For example, if you have 25% absorption, 5 enemies, and a hit of 1000 dmg, the first enemy will take 250 (25% of 1000), leaving 750 behind. The second will take 187.5, leaving 562.5. The third will take 140.6, leaving 421.9. The fourth will take 105.5, leaving 316.4. The last one will take 79.1, leaving 237.3. So, in the end, you took about 24% of the total damage. I agree that 40% would be way too much for sequential hits, but keep this mechanic in mind. 25%*5 isn't 125% resistance in this case. It's only 76%.

With that in mind, though, I like the idea of a reduced % with each hit. That allows the initial number to be high (say 40%), which keeps this powerful against solo bosses, but still allows it to benefit from more victims. Maybe make it keep going until the % damage spread is gone. So, for example, in the above situation, the first enemy takes 400 damage (40% of 1000). The second enemy takes 200 (30% of 600). The next takes 80 (20% of 400). The next takes 32 (10% of 320). The last takes 0 (0% of 288). You take 288 damage, for a total damage reduction of 74% for you, as opposed to the original 40%. As long as you keep the original % damage spread a multiple of the reduction per enemy at each talent level, this is an easy solution to limiting both damage reduction and the number of enemies hit.

Anyway, that's a bit complex, but something to keep in mind.

I'm a little dubious about Corrupted Regeneration, though. First off, I'm assuming the effect wouldn't stack, so if I get hit each turn for 3 turns, I've only lost the 2 Vim/turn from the first turn, not 6 Vim/turn on the third turn, right? Secondly, I don't like the idea of a passive that I can't deactivate draining my Vim, which doesn't regenerate naturally. Vim management is an important part of a corruptor class, and this would play havoc with that, especially as you're envisioning this as a melee mage. Maybe make it a sustain with 0 cost (and preferably instant activate and low cooldown), and/or make it a one-time cost, not a cost each turn?

For Amputation, my only suggestion is that you make it clear whether the damage in question is cumulative (i.e. your HP drops below 75%), or a single hit. I assume you mean a single hit, but I'd like to be sure. I like the idea, though.

[overgoat]

For Sympathetic Disease with sequential hits, the mechanics become pretty complex. On the one hand, this is a long-term sustain with no damage threshold or limit. That changes things drastically from a normal damage shield. On the other hand, you have to be in range of a diseased creature (which pretty much means first hits will get through 100%) and it will only absorb a portion of the damage. With sequential damage absorption, the damage absorbed by each enemy is reduced in the sequence. For example, if you have 25% absorption, 5 enemies, and a hit of 1000 dmg, the first enemy will take 250 (25% of 1000), leaving 750 behind. The second will take 187.5, leaving 562.5. The third will take 140.6, leaving 421.9. The fourth will take 105.5, leaving 316.4. The last one will take 79.1, leaving 237.3. So, in the end, you took about 24% of the total damage. I agree that 40% would be way too much for sequential hits, but keep this mechanic in mind. 25%*5 isn't 125% resistance in this case. It's only 76%.

I've reworked this a bit with some concerns about it becoming too powerful and think I've come up with a decent compromise:

Sympathetic Disease
Magic 38
Use mode: Sustain
Sustain cost: 20 VIM
Cooldown 20
Usage speed: 1 turn
Description:
While active 20/23/26/28/30% of the damage you receive will instead be applied to a random diseased creature in radius 2/3/4/4/5 as blight damage. At talent level 3 an additional enemy will also share the damage, but at half the rate. At talent level 5 a third enemy will share damage but at a third of the rate. The same enemy cannot be affected more than once.

Example: At TL5, you are hit for 1000 physical damage. One nearby diseased enemy is receives 300 blight damage, another receives 150 blight damage, and a third is hit for 100 blight damage. You receive 450 physical damage. So at TL5 it would provide 55% damage mitigation if you have at least three diseased enemies nearby, but only 30% if you only had one. This is pretty powerful still, but a bit better balanced I think.

I'm a little dubious about Corrupted Regeneration, though. First off, I'm assuming the effect wouldn't stack, so if I get hit each turn for 3 turns, I've only lost the 2 Vim/turn from the first turn, not 6 Vim/turn on the third turn, right? Secondly, I don't like the idea of a passive that I can't deactivate draining my Vim, which doesn't regenerate naturally. Vim management is an important part of a corruptor class, and this would play havoc with that, especially as you're envisioning this as a melee mage. Maybe make it a sustain with 0 cost (and preferably instant activate and low cooldown), and/or make it a one-time cost, not a cost each turn?

Very good ideas. I've adjusted to the following:

Corrupted Regeneration
Constitution 12
Use mode: Sustain
Sustain cost: 0 VIM
Cooldown 10
Usage speed: 1 turn
Description:
When you are damaged your corrupted flesh responds to heal itself. After being damaged your body consumes VIM to increase your regeneration rate by 3/6/9/12/15 x 1.(constitution) and your healing modify increases by 4/8/12/16/20 x 1.(constitution) for 3/4/5/6/7 rounds. This regeneration consumes 2 VIM per turn while the effect is active. If no VIM is available the effect will end. Receiving additional damage will not cause this effect to stack, but will reset the duration.

For Amputation, my only suggestion is that you make it clear whether the damage in question is cumulative (i.e. your HP drops below 75%), or a single hit. I assume you mean a single hit, but I'd like to be sure. I like the idea, though.

Good call. I've changed the language to reflect the damage coming from a single hit.

[overgoat]

I have edited the first post of the thread with the most recent edits.

One major change is to the Feed the Plague talent everyone hated so much It now provides slow health and VIM recovery each time a disease causes damage, with bonus VIM from more powerful mobs.

The Blindness disease is now called Cataracts

The Replication talent is now called Mitosis and got little more deadly. EDIT-- nm forgot Mitosis is already a talent for Oozamancers Back to Replication for now.

Several other minor changes and tweaks as well.

Please take a look and let me know what you think. I'm hoping if this gets locked in tight enough DG might implement it!

[Faeryan]

I like the current Defiler classes a lot, just like this one.

Since I'm all for this class I'll just mention the negatives/criticism parts.

- Unlike some people here I feel this class might be too powerful. Either I'm not seeing the big picture or the skills just fit my playing style really well.

- How many Defiler classes can there be? Diseases are just one domain and now there are three classes stepping on it. Will all of them feel different enough from each other?

This said, I wanna play this already. Get coding.

[overgoat]

Unlike some people here I feel this class might be too powerful. Either I'm not seeing the big picture or the skills just fit my playing style really well.

I'm not disagreeing with this. The general consensus from previous feedback was it that many talents were under powered and the negatives too high, but I wouldn't disagree at all with some nerfing of where it is now. There are a lot of synergies that stack which could definitely become very powerful. I kind of see this as comparable to the Solipsist and Oozemancer, but they are generally considered over powered as well

How many Defiler classes can there be? Diseases are just one domain and now there are three classes stepping on it. Will all of them feel different enough from each other?

There is always room for more bad guys! Those wilder goody-goodies hippies already have too many classes compared to the two lonely Defilers. I've always felt the corrupter was a bit too broad with the direct damage, hexes, curses, etc. and wanted something that focused on just one niche. The basic Corrupter build does share a few abilities, but I think the way they are played will be much different.

This said, I wanna play this already. Get coding.

Agreed! I wish I had the skills to do it myself. I think I should mail DG a fruit basket or something as bribery.

[Sirrocco]

On disease resistance penetration - right now, there are two good reasons to get disease resistance - Reavers and Corrupters Once this guy hits the field, there will be three. Having a full third of the sources of disease in the game ignore most (if not all) disease resistance could get kind of frustrating. (there is also corrupted ground and ghouls, but those don't really count so much).

- reliable 30%+ damage splitting is basically better than reliable across-the-board 30% damage resistance, until you get your resistance numbers up. If this guy is in combat, and has no diseased foes around, he's doing something wrong. 5 class points seems *awfully* cheap for reliable across-the-board 30% (or even 15%) damage resistance with a damage chaser. Am I missing something?

- Seems like this guy really ought to have some form of blight absorb tacked on to one of his skills. Maybe it was there and I missed it, but if not, seems like a thing to add in somewhere (possibly to replace some of the disease penetration)

[overgoat]

Thanks for the input!

On disease resistance penetration - right now, there are two good reasons to get disease resistance - Reavers and Corrupters Once this guy hits the field, there will be three. Having a full third of the sources of disease in the game ignore most (if not all) disease resistance could get kind of frustrating. (there is also corrupted ground and ghouls, but those don't really count so much).

You are probably right. I think I'll scale back the disease penetration back on the Hemophilia skill so they can't get to 100%. Maybe with Virulent and Hemophilia both maxed out they combine to 66%?

reliable 30%+ damage splitting is basically better than reliable across-the-board 30% damage resistance, until you get your resistance numbers up. If this guy is in combat, and has no diseased foes around, he's doing something wrong. 5 class points seems *awfully* cheap for reliable across-the-board 30% (or even 15%) damage resistance with a damage chaser. Am I missing something?

If this guy was a traditional caster I would completely agree, but he will be in close or melee range combat much of the time with likely little or no armor/defense. I do agree that this is certainly one of the more powerful ability that the class has, but I'm concerned without it that boss fights, especially in the mid/late game, might be too tough.

Seems like this guy really ought to have some form of blight absorb tacked on to one of his skills. Maybe it was there and I missed it, but if not, seems like a thing to add in somewhere (possibly to replace some of the disease penetration)

I was thinking the same, but didn't see a good place to put it in. The diseased talent seems to be a likely place, but that talent already provides quite a few modifiers and I thought it might be too 'busy.' Maybe move the stun/poison resistance out of Diseased and into Ossification and add blight absorb into Diseased? Any better place you can think of?

[Sirrocco]

so - looking at defenses on this guy (current printing)
- +1 life per level is a thing, especially compared with the -4 that some of the others get.
- There are a lot of skills that passively inflict diseases - meaning that swarming is not as much of a problem in general, but also that you can afford to spend actions on defense - much of your damage-dealing is passive. Additionally, it's a bunch of debuffs handed out to your enemies, cutting down on their ability to harm you that way.
- Diseased gives disease immunity (barring penetration), and some stun/poison resist.
- Absorb Disease is (among other things) a heal.
- Plague rats are a really *very* effective way of throwing speedbumps between you and the foe. It's less effective than it could be, due to the way that retargeting works now, but friendly speedbumps are definitely a defense.
- As previously noted, Sympathetic Disease gives some pretty impressive passive damage splitting.
- One with the Horde is a handy teleport and status removal combined.
- Replication gives you yet more of the speedbump defense.
- Has con as a class stat
- Ossification gives you resist all.
- Cataracts gives you blindness immunity and inherent evasion.
- Feed (Fed?) By The Plague gives you passive lifegain off of your passive diseases
- Plague's Protection increases the debuff factor of those diseases.
- Reborn gives you extra lives.
- Corrupted Regeneration is another source of heal over time
- Amputation is an unreliable but action-free way of getting rid of debuffs
- Terrifying presence is an action-free way to daze/stun (with associated effects on enemy damage-dealign abilities).
- A heavy armor build is pretty viable, I think - relatively little of the power of the class is in active abilities.

Admittedly, the loss of infusions stings a bit, but even so, to me, this list does not scream out "oh no, he's so fragile, how will he survive?"

I understand the lore of it, but it seems somehow weird and sad to have a disease-based class that can't be played by ghouls.

Other suggestion - If you're going to nuke infusions, you ought to nuke wilder powers as well.

[Theyleon]

Using vim will automatically nuke wild powers - you get massive equilibrium anytime you use a vim power for existing defiler classes.

[Sirrocco]

The only tree they're likely to have access to is the Elemental Harmony tree (since every other easy source comes through the Zig one way or the other) and that has a passive that might have some builds going 1/5/0/0 for it. I just figure that if you're messed up enough that infusions don't work, you should be messed up enough that wild-gifts don't work either.