No offense but I think many people are missing the point of Grey's suggestion. This isn't about a major boost to in combat regen, this is about reducing the tedium of resting at very high levels.
As to the no incentive comment, lets not forget that Con still boosts hit points, with or without the health talent it's a valuable investment.
Add HP regen to Con
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Silvermoon
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Re: Add HP regen to Con
From a practical standpoint, during a prolonged battle, a higher max HP is only useful to shrug off a blow so heavy it would nearly kill you outright without it. What is important is not the volume of hit points, but how quickly you can recover them, and the value of the hit points you are losing -- increasing resistances increases that value EXPONENTIALLY. By losing that resistance bonus, CON loses a lot of it's value.
Because CON currently increases all resistances, it effectively is increasing the value of each HP you have, and thus by extension, the value of all HP healed. By removing resist all from CON, you are putting the burden for this resistance elsewhere. But even replacing it with equivalent Healing Mod wouldn't make a difference, as Healing Mod has diminishing returns, while resistances have exponential returns.
To explain more clearly, at 0% resistance, 20% resistance will cause you to take 20% less damage than before. At 40% resistance, the additional 20% resistance cuts the damage you are taking over 20% resistance by 25%. 60% cuts damage by 33% over 40%. Up until you hit the resistance cap, each point of resistance is more important than the last.
By contrast, Healing Mod starts at a 100% value. Adding 50% Healing Mod increases all healing you take by 50%. An additional 50% Healing Mod increases you to 200% Healing Mod, which is 33% more effective than 150% Healing Mod. Each point of Healing Mod is LESS effective than the last point.
Because of this, I was always under the impression that people took CON for it's Resist All attributes. Perhaps I'm ignorant, or perhaps people mis-attribute their increased survival to the HP gains from CON, and not the damage mitigation that stacks with all other resistances.
Because CON currently increases all resistances, it effectively is increasing the value of each HP you have, and thus by extension, the value of all HP healed. By removing resist all from CON, you are putting the burden for this resistance elsewhere. But even replacing it with equivalent Healing Mod wouldn't make a difference, as Healing Mod has diminishing returns, while resistances have exponential returns.
To explain more clearly, at 0% resistance, 20% resistance will cause you to take 20% less damage than before. At 40% resistance, the additional 20% resistance cuts the damage you are taking over 20% resistance by 25%. 60% cuts damage by 33% over 40%. Up until you hit the resistance cap, each point of resistance is more important than the last.
By contrast, Healing Mod starts at a 100% value. Adding 50% Healing Mod increases all healing you take by 50%. An additional 50% Healing Mod increases you to 200% Healing Mod, which is 33% more effective than 150% Healing Mod. Each point of Healing Mod is LESS effective than the last point.
Because of this, I was always under the impression that people took CON for it's Resist All attributes. Perhaps I'm ignorant, or perhaps people mis-attribute their increased survival to the HP gains from CON, and not the damage mitigation that stacks with all other resistances.
Re: Add HP regen to Con
In my experience, though, the most dangerous things in Tome are not steady, constant toe-to-toe fights eroding your HP slowly bit by bit, but sudden huge unexpected bursts of damage. High HP is vital to surviving those (obviously resistances help too, possibly even more than HP, but HP isn't useless.)
Well, that and status affects that prevent you from responding, but those are something else.
Obviously it depends on your character, though. I tend to play caster-types more than fighters, so I might be biased -- for them, the high HP is the more important part, since you're not supposed to be taking damage, and probably have an escape option provided that you survive the initial hit.
Well, that and status affects that prevent you from responding, but those are something else.
Obviously it depends on your character, though. I tend to play caster-types more than fighters, so I might be biased -- for them, the high HP is the more important part, since you're not supposed to be taking damage, and probably have an escape option provided that you survive the initial hit.
Re: Add HP regen to Con
Aquillion wrote:In my experience, though, the most dangerous things in Tome are not steady, constant toe-to-toe fights eroding your HP slowly bit by bit, but sudden huge unexpected bursts of damage. High HP is vital to surviving those (obviously resistances help too, possibly even more than HP, but HP isn't useless.)
Canderel wrote:Maybe you should just check all the winners on the site, a great deal had a significant, if not maxxed out con stat. [...]
Obviously Tiger_eye's rogue is a big exception there.
I don't know how many times that character's life was dropped below 50 HP, but it's more than I wish to share
. Thus, I agree with Aquillion that high HP can be really useful for not dying, and close calls (or death) often comes from "sudden huge unexpected bursts of damage." Defense, armour, resistances, saves, etc. are all helpful too, of course. Heh, even without investing in Con, that rogue winner was able to boost nearly all key damage resistances close to or above their caps from gear, talents, and a wild infusion.So, regarding the initial suggestion from DGrey, increasing life regen by 0.01 per Con seems reasonable and difficult to abuse. This has my support.
Another idea would be to have Con increase resistance caps by a small amount.
Re: Add HP regen to Con
People took Con for two reasons, hit points and to unlock the health talent to get more hit points (okay, that's really just one reason).
Then Resist All got added to Con (about ten or so betas ago? or was it longer?) and then people still took Con for two reasons but they got some free resist all out of it.
In the SVN people will take Con to get Hit Points and if they want Resist All they can take the talent for it. The Resist All talent gives twice as much resist all to a character with 60 Con as the Con attribute alone would have. So the real trade off here is 200 hit points for 7% resist all (at least up till the 60 Con mark).
Soo.. with all of that in mind yes Con alone is getting nerfed a bit. Con + Health talent is getting changed a bit but over all you get more Resist All for 200 less hit points.
I don't think Grey's point was "Con got nefed can we buff it again" but "Resting is tedious at high levels and since Con got nefed could we give it this small thing to make the game less tedious?"
Then Resist All got added to Con (about ten or so betas ago? or was it longer?) and then people still took Con for two reasons but they got some free resist all out of it.
In the SVN people will take Con to get Hit Points and if they want Resist All they can take the talent for it. The Resist All talent gives twice as much resist all to a character with 60 Con as the Con attribute alone would have. So the real trade off here is 200 hit points for 7% resist all (at least up till the 60 Con mark).
Soo.. with all of that in mind yes Con alone is getting nerfed a bit. Con + Health talent is getting changed a bit but over all you get more Resist All for 200 less hit points.
I don't think Grey's point was "Con got nefed can we buff it again" but "Resting is tedious at high levels and since Con got nefed could we give it this small thing to make the game less tedious?"
Re: Add HP regen to Con
Unless they're in the Infinite Dungeon as a class which has that tree unavailable.edge2054 wrote: In the SVN people will take Con to get Hit Points and if they want Resist All they can take the talent for it.
Re: Add HP regen to Con
Precisely. Even before the Con nerf I was thinking that base HP regen needs some loving later in the game. Some classes can unlock a talent tree which gives some nice increases to it, or load up on gear to boost it, but many will get stuck with the horribly slow base rate for a long part of the game. It makes resting take crazy long later in the game, especially compared to stamina and mana (which have lower pools). Not such a problem for non-undead I guess, but I think it's something that could do with some improvement for everyone. Con just represents a opportunity to tie this to a fitting stat.edge2054 wrote: I don't think Grey's point was "Con got nefed can we buff it again" but "Resting is tedious at high levels and since Con got nefed could we give it this small thing to make the game less tedious?"