Infinite Lives

[Grey]

It's hardly locked content - it can be achieved easily by cheating. Nor does it break suspension of disbelief, since it'll only be noted in the external game menu. And it helps pay DarkGod's bills ;) He's made a great game for nothing, and if people want it to be a different sort of game then let them pay for it. As I see it infinite lives is outright bad game design, and a bad way to keep your fanbase playing in the long term, and I can't imagine DarkGod wanting to deliberately break his game unless there's a financial incentive.

[shwqa]

Well lets look at the statistics. I know the statistics aren't perfect but they are the only data available. At the time of this post there have been 17,089 character that got to level 2 (i.e. play for some amount of time), when you get to level 20 (the time when you start wrapping up the west) only 2,243 character are around, in the end there are only 160 level 50 characters. That means that a character only has a 0.936274797% chance of beating the game. Vast majority of people aren't playing most of this game. I know there is a group of people that like the challenge of a permanent death, but that is not the vast majory of people out there. I find permanent death annoying because I die in the far east and when I want to get better in the far east that means playing all of the west first. That is why I cheat and will continue to cheat, because I don't find permanent death fun.

[Nori]

I think a option with infinite lives wouldn't be a bad idea.
Maybe it could work like this, you get your lives as in normal mode, but when you die the last death you get a option to resurrect you character losing the ability to gain any extra unlocks or achievements, but being able to continue playing. There could even be some in-game explanation like a pact with a evil spellcaster. And of course it would be reflected that you took this option in the online profile.

I think it would really lower the barrier of entry to the game and allow more casual players and the more hardcore people would still have their achievements.

[madmonk]

Cheat mode is a bit of a misnomer.

It should really be called Wizard mode. In wizard mode there are piles of commands that allow you to do all sorts of things that include death, location, experience, items, etc.

I see no point in implementing a mode that is already there!

[lukep]

The main difference that I see between cheat (or Wizard) mode and infinite lives is official support. To my mind, using debug commands is cheating (even though it's a single player game, and therefore doesn't matter). If a birth choice with infinite lives was added, it would make it accessible to a larger audience, as opposed to only those who use debug commands.

[Nori]

Plus the people most likely to want the so called "infinite lives" are not going to know about debug/cheat mode or how to use it.

[evouga]

I don't understand the attitude of some of the people in this thread.

Torchlight is a best-selling game. So was Diablo II. "Infinite lives = no challenge = no fun" is an absurd argument on its face. It's just a different way of playing the game than the typical roguelike.

Secondly, no one is suggesting adding infinite lives to Roguelike or Insane. You don't play on any other mode, because it is "impure," not a challenge, not fun, etc etc. We get that. Nobody is going to touch Roguelike or Insane mode. Why not let the plebs have their "un-fun" on Beginner mode? The following quote from the article linked above summarize my feelings exactly:

Don't want an easy game? Here's a thought: don't play on Easy. Why would letting Easy be Easy prevent Hard from being Hard? How can adding a legitimate Easy Mode to the game remove anything? All the challenge of Hard Mode remains completely intact - there's just also another less-challenging mode. Giving an Easy Mode to the people who need or want it has no effect on the play experience of those who don't use it - all it does is allow more people to enjoy the game, and more gamers is better!

[Grey]

Torchlight is a best-selling game. So was Diablo II. "Infinite lives = no challenge = no fun" is an absurd argument on its face. It's just a different way of playing the game than the typical roguelike.

I note the "was" on Diablo. Nethack and ADOM were both released earlier, and whilst they never achieved the fandom Diablo reached, they are still being very actively played today, in spite of zero development for years. The roguelike mix of permadeath and random content keeps people hooked. Take away the death and people will stop playing much sooner.

You might not agree with that of course, but I personally believe it's one of the key attractions of the genre. Many classic arcades have the same appeal. Tetris or Pac-man wouldn't be half as fun with infinite lives.

[Final Master]

I note the "was" on Diablo. Nethack and ADOM were both released earlier, and whilst they never achieved the fandom Diablo reached, they are still being very actively played today, in spite of zero development for years. The roguelike mix of permadeath and random content keeps people hooked. Take away the death and people will stop playing much sooner.

You might not agree with that of course, but I personally believe it's one of the key attractions of the genre. Many classic arcades have the same appeal. Tetris or Pac-man wouldn't be half as fun with infinite lives.

*applauds*

[Tom]

Why not keep one life and make monsters deal out zero damage?
That way peole do not have to die.

Tom

[Hedrachi]

I gotta go with evouga on this one, I got Torchlight the month it was released and still play it today... mostly after I die stupid deaths here, haha. Played D2 more than once. Would probably install and play it again but discs are REALLY badly scratched, and it had issues the last time I installed it on Vista. Besides, infinite lives isn't gonna save you if you're staring down orc faces in the prides and aren't anywhere near an exit. Nobody's saying give Insane or Roguelike difficulty infinite lives. If you don't like a difficulty that has infinite lives, don't use that difficulty level. This is neither Tetris nor Pac-Man, it's TOME.

Edit: Furthermore, two questions.

How many people on the "NO INFINITE LIVES!!!!!!" side have NOT beaten the game?
How many people on the "YES INFINITE LIVES!!!!!" side have beaten the game?

To me, it's a little unfair to say "If I can beat this game, anybody can, and anybody who wants to make the game easier in any fashion is attempting to cheapen my victory." Nobody is wholly equal to another person, their skills, memories, or thinking processes. It is never fair to say that, in fact.

A lot of this game depends on absolutely no stupid moves being made whatsoever. If you're doing this, then you still have to have a nice RNG to give you good gear. My latest character is level 22ish and has yet to see a single digging implement of any sort. He's also using a storebought green cloak, because again, there hasn't been anything better. He used a storebought amulet as well until Daikara 1, and a green second ring until Bloodcaller. Sorry if this seems flamey, but unless I'm mistaken, a lot of you in the "NO" column are screaming at something proposed for a difficulty you never use anyway.

[Canderel]

I haven't finished the game. And I'm kinda in the middle here. Tiger eye made a great argument, but the fact is that I don't have that much time in a week to play. For the last couple of betas I've ran only one serious char per beta. And until saves are compatible, I'll probably not finish. Anyway, I play to explore the game and to better my char- an important point to note - it's not just about "beating" the game, its also about fulfilling the potential of the class. That is why I'd like a mode where skills have no caps (or very high ones) and levels go up into infinity.

[Grey]

Edit: Furthermore, two questions.

How many people on the "NO INFINITE LIVES!!!!!!" side have NOT beaten the game?
How many people on the "YES INFINITE LIVES!!!!!" side have beaten the game?

I have not beaten the game. Gotten to the east about 3 times and had my ass handed to me each time. Overall I don't get a lot of time to play, and I imagine that inbetween writing lore pieces and posting here I spend more time writing about the game than playing it ;) I find it hard to start and finish a char inbetween beta releases, and some betas I end up missing altogether. I don't mind this though, and each death I have just makes me want to play more. I don't care how long it takes, I know I'll beat the game one day, and I enjoy each playthrough regardless. Deaths especially tend to be fun and unique :)

It took me 9 years to beat ADOM. If I can improve on that with ToME I'll be happy ;)

Sorry if this seems flamey, but unless I'm mistaken, a lot of you in the "NO" column are screaming at something proposed for a difficulty you never use anyway.

I don't think anyone's screaming. And I know full well it's intended for other difficulty levels. I'm debating purely on the point of what is good and bad game design, especially in respect of roguelikes. As a free game ToME needs something to keep people playing. Commercial games don't worry about this - hell, they want people to stop playing and to start playing their next hit instead. This is why I suggested letting donators have infinite lives if they want - it would essentially introduce a parallel distribution model. Of course everyone should be donating anyway, but this adds a little incentive for some ;)

[Hedrachi]

Hm, point. I myself wouldn't use infinite lives if available, but I don't like the idea of forced to play a game a way I don't want to play it, and can't imagine anyone else would either. It's a single-player game, infinite lives in discovery mode would be a way for players to figure out every fight in the game that they can access in discovery mode, without unlocking anything, or getting any achievements. Kinda hard to plan for boss fights you can't possibly get to.

[lukep]

How many people on the "NO INFINITE LIVES!!!!!!" side have NOT beaten the game?
How many people on the "YES INFINITE LIVES!!!!!" side have beaten the game?

I have beaten the game on Adventure mode several times. (chardumps here, here, and here though the last one didn't register as a winner) and think that Adventure mode is the right balance of challenge and accessibility for me, so probably wouldn't use infinite lives much, if at all.