no selling

[edge2054]

I would like to see gold actually be worth something. The game has a lot of faucets but very few sinks.

Maybe you could hire staff for your fortress. Or buy furniture for it. Build a house in the sunwall. Donate gold to hire soldiers to protect a town from being invaded.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

I like the b19 system but if we're looking at making regular items worth picking up again I'd like gold to be worth collecting because right now it's mostly force of habit beyond level 10 or so.

[teachu2die]

haven't had a chance to play beta19 yet, but 'no selling' options in other roguelikes i've played have always been quite unpleasant to me.
i fully understand the reasons why it's a desirable change (reducing scumming/grinding, eliminating the 'tedium' and weight issues of carrying gear to the shop, etc), but i mostly agree with the sentiments of the detractors. it severely punishes most early/mid-game characters (particularly melee ones that generally rely on gear and consumable purchases), and it eliminates a fun and integral part of the game. when most drops are totally useless, it short circuits the risk/reward system that has been previously established, and suddenly dungeon exploration becomes much less exciting. another particularly irksome product of no-selling is when you find an extremely desirable weapon which you would be able to easily afford if you were simply allowed to sell off your current weapon. this really feels like punishment.
putting items to another use, like for building up sher'tul, feels kind of arbitrary, and doesn't actually solve the root 'problems'. and the fact that you can still sell artifacts and gems does not fully eliminate the problem of scumming/grinding for items - in some ways it only intensifies it.
if the concern is that players have 'too much gold', there are ways to increase the costs of items - particularly desirable items could have their prices increased exponentially in the shop, and shops in the far east could just be significantly more expensive all around. and there are a variety of mid-late game quests, shops, or NPCs that could be introduced that demand large quantities of gold for skills, talent points, or extremely desirable items....

[darkgod]

I dont know why people have this weird idea that the change was to reduce the gold people get.
I greatly increased money drops and the store buy %. Had it been my intention, I would not have done so...

[erdraug]

The shop caps are still there though. So most artifacts are not sell worthy - income will only come from gems, sold in small quantities to avoid the 25-30gp buy cap.

Speaking of gems, i supose this has been suggested already but they should really be on an autopickup basis now, just like gold is.

In fact i would suggest going a step further, if i may be so bold: gold and gems could be picked up while travelling via mouse without causing the character to stop (reason: object seen).

PS: for the record, i like the change, and couldn't care less for artifacts being unworthy to sell - i actually LIKE having them on display on Sheratul fortress.

[Gwai]

dg, I can only speak for myself, but the changes you describe would be a giant improvement in my opinion.
And yes, the reasons you list for wanting sellable loot cover my reasons, for sure perfectly.

(Mind, I also am very pleased that you have told me how to change the shop code so that I can enjoy beta19 too. Thank you!)

[darkgod]

I cant go around unpleasing Gwai, can I ?

[Susramanian]

I'd suggest holding off on any long discussions or drastic changes. We've had 18 betas of selling working one way, so let's take at least a couple betas to give this different system a try with open minds. Darkgod is clearly happy to make changes to please his ToME players and we can all trust that he'll end up doing what's best for the game. For those that like the current system, continue to enjoy it! For those that don't, keep playing and look for reasons to like it! Above all else, don't let frustration or anger spill out into your posts.

[Grey]

Can we give b19 a little time to settle on people, rather than acting on kneejerk complaints? It's easy to say you don't like a new system before you even get used to it.

Edit: Bah, Sus ninjad me with the same point!

[Gwai]

Why do you people think I waited a few days to start this thread? Purely to minimize kneejerk objections.
Frankly, I think it's a bit optimistic to presume that if we keep playing we will somehow be convinced that you all are right. I was actually only convinced that I didn't enjoy playing beta19. Over time I got more sure of my original feelings not less. I have a certain style of playing roguelikes and it is rather materialistic. Beta19 does not allow that, so I don't like it. That doesn't mean you all need to be convinced or agree with me! It just means that let's not presume I am likely to change my mind. (And for the record, I was not somehow planning to dislike the change. I was actually surprised that I didn't like it. I'd about convinced myself I would.)

[teachu2die]

(i somehow missed DGs earlier post - that does indeed sound good!)

[Grey]

Why do you people think I waited a few days to start this thread? Purely to minimize kneejerk objections.
Frankly, I think it's a bit optimistic to presume that if we keep playing we will somehow be convinced that you all are right. I was actually only convinced that I didn't enjoy playing beta19. Over time I got more sure of my original feelings not less. I have a certain style of playing roguelikes and it is rather materialistic. Beta19 does not allow that, so I don't like it. That doesn't mean you all need to be convinced or agree with me! It just means that let's not presume I am likely to change my mind. (And for the record, I was not somehow planning to dislike the change. I was actually surprised that I didn't like it. I'd about convinced myself I would.)

Well some people complaining haven't even played b19 yet...

I don't see why you need an artificial material drive to explore though. Would it help if gems dropped more often?

[darkgod]

Ah worry not then

Anyway my feeling is that the current b1ç way is the way to go ni the "not bother" way, but it lacks the excitement I agree, I think my proposal goes to both ways

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Sorry, dg, I didn't know the specifics behind the old system.

Now that I've played it a bit more, I've found it kind of nice to be able to just toss out anything I don't want to actually use and not have to worry about trying to haul it all back to town. It actually simplifies looting a lot.

I also gather from what other people have said that you actually can sell artifacts. I misunderstood that and didn't even try.

By the way, I've always thought that being able to sell back any sword littering the battlefield to be kind of ridiculous. Common weapons and such would be so common the why would anyone want to buy back an old used one if it was nothing special? I'm more than fine with those no being sellable, especially as they were worth almost nothing anyway.

[Canderel]

How to make the current system (a good system!) better:

• Get a system to define junk. And then don't generate/drop the items if it is defined as junk.
• Increase the # of random artifact drops.
• Increase the # of non-random artifact drops. (even though I think there are plenty already - which I like)
• Create more "Sets" (like moon-star) now is.
• Up the store cap
• Automatically sell stacked items so that the cap is irrelevant
• Add more uses for money --- similar to the ringmaking, maybe using gems, to create all types of equipment? Though maybe restrict what effects can be put onto which equipment, so you don't have a +10% damage on each equipment, and then suddenly do a HUGE amount of damage. (OR similarly, +10% resist alls on all equip to reach +120% resist all)...

OR...

Get an autosell/convert to gold option on loot lying in the dungeon, which should be less than picking up and selling it in the dungeon...

[Grey]

I don't like the idea of more artifact drops - I think there's quite a sufficient number already. If there are more artifact drops then we need more artifact ideas, as the present ones show up too often (we have a separate thread for such ideas, of course, which needs more input from everyone). If you want more items to be able to sell then the obvious answer to me must be blue drops. These are obviously "special" since you have to use the orb to identify them. Essentially they're artifacts but not unique.

Raising gold caps on stores is a must. Or the cap should be flexible - if you buy from the store then the cap is raised by 50% of what you invested. If you sell to the store then the cap drops.

More ways to spend gold would be nice, but I'd hate to have a whole tedious crafting minigame. They always end up rather scummy. I suppose some necklace making wouldn't be so bad, since the raw materials are already in place, but it would have to feel sufficiently different to ring-making.

I'd like to see more skills trainers. At the moment you can only learn basic combat stuff, or get lucky with some escort rewards. It would be good to have trainers that charge really exhorbitant prices for one-off increases to stats, talents, masteries, etc, as well as learning new trees. It would be a way of customising your character more.