Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
Moderator: Moderator
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
While we're at it, it might be nice to fold in an explanation of why there are so many magical staves, given that the people who most use them tend to be the aforementioned true mages. What has made it so that it's cool to have a magical staff, but not cool to be a mage?
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
I just guess they were old relics from the past. Also perhaps the archmages might be planting them around the world to make people, like the hedge wizard here, more friendly to magic.Sirrocco wrote:While we're at it, it might be nice to fold in an explanation of why there are so many magical staves, given that the people who most use them tend to be the aforementioned true mages. What has made it so that it's cool to have a magical staff, but not cool to be a mage?
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
I would say that it would be fitting that a new wizard class should get the alchemist mage-staff talents, as it would give them a wizard vibe, without giving them spells.
Anyway, while all the rune using ideas are interesting, I have another idea that would fit the theme of an untrained wizard: random spells (similar to thaumaturgy). The class could have a talent tree, with 4 talents which effects are randomly selected for every level (but persistent on that level to avoid scumming for effects).
As a starting suggestion (and with really crappy names), here could be the tree:
Ambient magic:
1 - Forceful magic: (active)
Attack spell, of a random element (fire/cold/electricity/acid/nature only).
The kind of spell is either a long-ranged bolt, a very-short-ranged bolt (down to a range of 1), a average-ranged beam, a weak ball of radius 1 or 2, or a very weak cloud effect.
Mana cost low and cooldown 5-10 turns (depending on the effect).
2 - Restoring magic: (active)
Random healing talent.
Can be either direct healing, cleaning of all negative effects, cleaning of all (negative and positive) effects, restoring mana, and a spell that heal others (good for escorts only).
3 - Reinforcing magic: (passive)
Passive with a good buff, but with a mana upkeep. Automatically deactivated when leaving the level.
Effects can be a stat increase (a single stat a lot or all stats a little), a regeneration boost, more resistance/damage/defense/whatever.
4 - Destructive magic: (active)
A more powerful attack talent.
Again a random element, but all elements are possible (including arcane and blight), maybe even with side-effects.
The kind of spells would be blasts (centered on the caster), large balls, powerful clouds, or long-ranged beams.
Mana cost high and cooldown 10-30 turns.
Just a random idea I had...
Anyway, while all the rune using ideas are interesting, I have another idea that would fit the theme of an untrained wizard: random spells (similar to thaumaturgy). The class could have a talent tree, with 4 talents which effects are randomly selected for every level (but persistent on that level to avoid scumming for effects).
As a starting suggestion (and with really crappy names), here could be the tree:
Ambient magic:
1 - Forceful magic: (active)
Attack spell, of a random element (fire/cold/electricity/acid/nature only).
The kind of spell is either a long-ranged bolt, a very-short-ranged bolt (down to a range of 1), a average-ranged beam, a weak ball of radius 1 or 2, or a very weak cloud effect.
Mana cost low and cooldown 5-10 turns (depending on the effect).
2 - Restoring magic: (active)
Random healing talent.
Can be either direct healing, cleaning of all negative effects, cleaning of all (negative and positive) effects, restoring mana, and a spell that heal others (good for escorts only).
3 - Reinforcing magic: (passive)
Passive with a good buff, but with a mana upkeep. Automatically deactivated when leaving the level.
Effects can be a stat increase (a single stat a lot or all stats a little), a regeneration boost, more resistance/damage/defense/whatever.
4 - Destructive magic: (active)
A more powerful attack talent.
Again a random element, but all elements are possible (including arcane and blight), maybe even with side-effects.
The kind of spells would be blasts (centered on the caster), large balls, powerful clouds, or long-ranged beams.
Mana cost high and cooldown 10-30 turns.
Just a random idea I had...
-
asthmatic_thematic
- Higher
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:15 pm
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
I really like the idea of a hedge wizard, but if he's going to stay hedge-ish, he really needs to be a bit weak and different.
I like the idea of hedge wizards being weak wizards. Instead of getting phase door, they get blink; instead of getting a standard manathrust spell, they get something like a spell of conjuration, which randomly shoots out a beam of x, y, or z. I like the thought of them being a bit more random or probabilistic than normal mages, because they can't quite control things. But they should be thought of as very tough or resourceful (eg, most spells cast almost nothing, or are very very fast to cast, or have no cooldown, or ...). They could have a wide variety of "cantrips", or small spells, to solve problems, rather than having the big spell hammers that the archmages have. Since they've survived this far, they could have certain limited magical cantrippy and rogueish powers like distract, or limited invisibility (for two turns, say), and the ability to lock and hold doors (since door stuff needs to be reintroduced anyway), tangle (slow a monster), grab (get an object 2-3 square away), afright, lightflash, float (gets you past traps), deflect arrows to random surrounding square, etc.
Their spells will get better and better as they get more powerful, but might always be a bit chancy. By the end they could have a lot of damage, but with a ton of variation depending on how chance plays out.
Another typical wizard item, besides the staff, is books. Hedge wizards, as untutored, could be a class that needs grimoires for anything but the basic semi-random spells they've figured out themselves. I know we've gotten away from books, but hedges are a perfect fit for reintroducing them in a limited way.
It's also possible that playing hedges could function to unlock the full wizard class (replacing or augmenting the current unlock). If a hedge gets too big for his own britches, he could call down some wizards to kick his butt, and if he accepts the challenge and wins, archmages are unlocked, or...
I like the idea of hedge wizards being weak wizards. Instead of getting phase door, they get blink; instead of getting a standard manathrust spell, they get something like a spell of conjuration, which randomly shoots out a beam of x, y, or z. I like the thought of them being a bit more random or probabilistic than normal mages, because they can't quite control things. But they should be thought of as very tough or resourceful (eg, most spells cast almost nothing, or are very very fast to cast, or have no cooldown, or ...). They could have a wide variety of "cantrips", or small spells, to solve problems, rather than having the big spell hammers that the archmages have. Since they've survived this far, they could have certain limited magical cantrippy and rogueish powers like distract, or limited invisibility (for two turns, say), and the ability to lock and hold doors (since door stuff needs to be reintroduced anyway), tangle (slow a monster), grab (get an object 2-3 square away), afright, lightflash, float (gets you past traps), deflect arrows to random surrounding square, etc.
Their spells will get better and better as they get more powerful, but might always be a bit chancy. By the end they could have a lot of damage, but with a ton of variation depending on how chance plays out.
Another typical wizard item, besides the staff, is books. Hedge wizards, as untutored, could be a class that needs grimoires for anything but the basic semi-random spells they've figured out themselves. I know we've gotten away from books, but hedges are a perfect fit for reintroducing them in a limited way.
It's also possible that playing hedges could function to unlock the full wizard class (replacing or augmenting the current unlock). If a hedge gets too big for his own britches, he could call down some wizards to kick his butt, and if he accepts the challenge and wins, archmages are unlocked, or...
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
In Feist's Magician, Pug is untrained... His skills came naturally to him, he "automatically" intuitively adjusted to him being in danger.
So I like the idea of things random, but also, rather sustained or passive abilities. Something that auto-defends, Premonition/Resolve-like, random attack spells (could be activated).
Random per Attack makes sense (though is dangerous, but you ARE a hedge mage)...
Hedge Magic Tree Offensive:
1. Random Bolt attack, as the levels go up, the damage goes up.
2. Random Beam attack
3. Random Ball attack
4. On all random attacks, the spells has a X% chance of becoming the enemy's worst covered resistance (or targetting the weakness) (passive)
(These skills must take a LOT of mana, because he is trying to stuff that he doesn't really know understand)
Hedge Magic Tree Defensive:
1. Shield rune
2. X% chance to turn invisible for Y turns if hit for Z damage (on shield or on self)
3. Resolve like spell (automatically raising resistance to given element)
4. Summon Barrier - The will summon a temporary barrier (unmoving "creature" with scaling HP) on target square next to you (range and HP scales)
There might be generic too...
So I like the idea of things random, but also, rather sustained or passive abilities. Something that auto-defends, Premonition/Resolve-like, random attack spells (could be activated).
Random per Attack makes sense (though is dangerous, but you ARE a hedge mage)...
Hedge Magic Tree Offensive:
1. Random Bolt attack, as the levels go up, the damage goes up.
2. Random Beam attack
3. Random Ball attack
4. On all random attacks, the spells has a X% chance of becoming the enemy's worst covered resistance (or targetting the weakness) (passive)
(These skills must take a LOT of mana, because he is trying to stuff that he doesn't really know understand)
Hedge Magic Tree Defensive:
1. Shield rune
2. X% chance to turn invisible for Y turns if hit for Z damage (on shield or on self)
3. Resolve like spell (automatically raising resistance to given element)
4. Summon Barrier - The will summon a temporary barrier (unmoving "creature" with scaling HP) on target square next to you (range and HP scales)
There might be generic too...
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
I think we should stick away from the beam and balls as they just make the class look like a crappy version of the archmage. Ultimately it should still be a viable class option after archmages are unlocked.
Given the setting they should maybe be given the title "Enchanter" and mostly use utility spells that aren't frowned upon by society at large. It should have plenty of defensive options (magical disarm, shield, temp invis, evasion), self-buffs (floating, fearsome aura, speed) and minor status attacks (dazing, stunning, teleport enemy away a min distance), but no raw attack abilities. Its combat abilities would come through staff combat (existing tree plus a new pumped up tree) and rune-based skills.
Given the setting they should maybe be given the title "Enchanter" and mostly use utility spells that aren't frowned upon by society at large. It should have plenty of defensive options (magical disarm, shield, temp invis, evasion), self-buffs (floating, fearsome aura, speed) and minor status attacks (dazing, stunning, teleport enemy away a min distance), but no raw attack abilities. Its combat abilities would come through staff combat (existing tree plus a new pumped up tree) and rune-based skills.
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
I completly agree with grey 
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
Sounds good to me... My idea was just based around the fact that he is a natural, the magic almost happens itself (that's why it automagically can target the weakness of the enemy)... The 3 Offense skills were just so... I can have some offensive capabilities...
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
Yeah I liek this idea, although I'd see it more for a Wilder caster class that is literally imbued by the power of nature.
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
I agree with DG, this is an interesting idea but really not what I was implying by an untrained wizard. This isn't a guy who woke up one morning and said, "Wow, I can do magic!!" but rather the guy who spent years and years studying wands, runes, magical staves, and whatever little bit of knowledge he could get his hands on.Canderel wrote:Sounds good to me... My idea was just based around the fact that he is a natural, the magic almost happens itself (that's why it automagically can target the weakness of the enemy)... The 3 Offense skills were just so... I can have some offensive capabilities...
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
Oh... that was what I had in mind.edge2054 wrote:This isn't a guy who woke up one morning and said, "Wow, I can do magic!!"
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
[quote="Grey"
Given the setting they should maybe be given the title "Enchanter" and mostly use utility spells that aren't frowned upon by society at large. It should have plenty of defensive options (magical disarm, shield, temp invis, evasion), self-buffs (floating, fearsome aura, speed) and minor status attacks (dazing, stunning, teleport enemy away a min distance), but no raw attack abilities. Its combat abilities would come through staff combat (existing tree plus a new pumped up tree) and rune-based skills.[/quote]
I really like these ideas, just need to come up with names for these trees
Given the setting they should maybe be given the title "Enchanter" and mostly use utility spells that aren't frowned upon by society at large. It should have plenty of defensive options (magical disarm, shield, temp invis, evasion), self-buffs (floating, fearsome aura, speed) and minor status attacks (dazing, stunning, teleport enemy away a min distance), but no raw attack abilities. Its combat abilities would come through staff combat (existing tree plus a new pumped up tree) and rune-based skills.[/quote]
I really like these ideas, just need to come up with names for these trees
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
Anyway, here's what I've got so far.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RRq ... y=CMe7kqIC#
I'd like to incorporate Grey's ideas from his last post somehow too and I think that will be a pretty solid start.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RRq ... y=CMe7kqIC#
I'd like to incorporate Grey's ideas from his last post somehow too and I think that will be a pretty solid start.
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
I would say that, while I understand having the class centered around the theme of using magic items instead of random magic, I am not really a fan of your current design. Firstly, the Artificing talent is heavily encouraging scumming (both trying to buy runes/wands from towns and recasting it a lot at talent level 4). Secondly, the Investitures tree is going to force a lot of micromanagement, since now all inscription slots are no longer equal.
Re: Hedge Wizard Class Idea (work in progress)
The artificing talent only encourages scumming on cast if it creates random effects. I'm sorry if I implied that it does.
My idea was I could use a wand of this well I have two wands of this that I don't need so I'll burn them and now I have the wand I want. The power of said wand would be determined by the talent level and may even have a runic flag to override the random properties wands are generally created with.
I don't see how Investitures cause a lot of micromanagement. You'd cast it once to swap out a rune (though after some discussion with DG this talent tree may need to be reworked anyway to be more feasible with current code). The idea I'm going for with Investitures is something modular to supplement holes in the character's casting and staff trees. If you want more defense you Invest in defensive slots, if you want more elemental attacks so you're not boned if you run across something that resists your current staffs damage type you invest in offensive runes. Once invested you use a secondary talent.
Right now the current thought is you sustain an Investiture and it pops open a dialogue box that lets you learn Runeish powers. As long as the sustain is active you know the talent you selected and can use it. These probably won't be real runes but powers that mimic rune or wand effects. Once the sustain is canceled you'll unlearn the 'Rune' talent. If the cooldown is pretty hefty on the Invest it'll discourage mid-fight micromanagement. Otherwise you have to cast once to sustain to get talent X before a fight, I don't think that's a lot of micro for something so modular.
Anyway I'm open to suggestions on how to improve things. If someone has a better idea for the Artifice tree I wouldn't mind seeing the wand/rune creation talent replaced with something else.
My idea was I could use a wand of this well I have two wands of this that I don't need so I'll burn them and now I have the wand I want. The power of said wand would be determined by the talent level and may even have a runic flag to override the random properties wands are generally created with.
I don't see how Investitures cause a lot of micromanagement. You'd cast it once to swap out a rune (though after some discussion with DG this talent tree may need to be reworked anyway to be more feasible with current code). The idea I'm going for with Investitures is something modular to supplement holes in the character's casting and staff trees. If you want more defense you Invest in defensive slots, if you want more elemental attacks so you're not boned if you run across something that resists your current staffs damage type you invest in offensive runes. Once invested you use a secondary talent.
Right now the current thought is you sustain an Investiture and it pops open a dialogue box that lets you learn Runeish powers. As long as the sustain is active you know the talent you selected and can use it. These probably won't be real runes but powers that mimic rune or wand effects. Once the sustain is canceled you'll unlearn the 'Rune' talent. If the cooldown is pretty hefty on the Invest it'll discourage mid-fight micromanagement. Otherwise you have to cast once to sustain to get talent X before a fight, I don't think that's a lot of micro for something so modular.
Anyway I'm open to suggestions on how to improve things. If someone has a better idea for the Artifice tree I wouldn't mind seeing the wand/rune creation talent replaced with something else.