Divine Class unlock earlier in the game..

[Sirrocco]

Meh - I'd hate to have an unlock that I was required to dip down to an easier level for.

On the other hand, if include the "running through the tutorial unlocks one class" schtick, then that could actually work pretty well. People who wanted to avoid easy would just grab the one that you get for finishing on easy mode.

The greyed-out suggestion seems fine, except I'd trim it back *slightly* so that you don't get to open up categories where you haven't unlocked any of the classes - so, for example, at the start of the game you'd know about the verious sorts of archmages (since Alchemist is unlocked) but all you'd know about Wilders is that there is a category called "Wilders". I'm not sure how I feel about spoiling stuff on the chargen screens, though - I'd think that just telling people where to go if they want to be spoiled would be better.

...and cryo is so not impossible. All you have to do is play a frost-heavy wyrmic a few times. Mind you, it'll likely take a while for it to come out on its own, but I personally expect to get it long before I see pyromancer.

I emphatically disagree on the "requirements should be lowered" plan. I'd personally like to have stuff to look forward to all the way up to the endgame, even if I never make it there myself.

[edge2054]

Unlocking on beating the game on a higher difficulty then easy would unlock it too of course.

[Grey]

The greyed-out suggestion seems fine, except I'd trim it back *slightly* so that you don't get to open up categories where you haven't unlocked any of the classes - so, for example, at the start of the game you'd know about the verious sorts of archmages (since Alchemist is unlocked) but all you'd know about Wilders is that there is a category called "Wilders". I'm not sure how I feel about spoiling stuff on the chargen screens, though - I'd think that just telling people where to go if they want to be spoiled would be better.

I think this is a quite nice idea, so that new players will see straight away that there's more to the game than meets the eye. The initial band of classes available will look a bit odd to anyone coming from other games, and some may be put off by the lack of choices they personally like. A greyed out archmage at least will get them curious to find out more and gives them an instant incentive in playing the game.

[Mithril]

Unlocking a class after the tutorial is likely not a good idea since you still now very little about the game. At this point you just want to get on with playing your first real game. Most people will likely just choose "Sun Paladin" since that is the coolest name without looking at anything else.

[Zonk]

You misunderstand my point.
....

You may have a point about unlocks indirectly pushing people to experiment with different classes.
But to me it's a very rough and artificial way to do that.
It doesn't suggest, tease or persuade people to behave in a certain way.
It just blocks them until they've done other - sometimes not obviously related - things.
So when you actually become able to do that thing, you almost 'have' to check it out.

You do DEFINITELY have a point about some players perhaps overlooking some classes and missing out on stuff they might like.
Alchemists are a very relevant example. If you just read the name somewhere but didn't read the class description(maybe you were a T2 player), you might NOT expect the whole golem thing. They also don't have much to do with potions...
This isn't the first time this is suggested, but perhaps 'Artificer' would be better. But I disgress...

Anyway, I don't feel like unlocks are the most satisfying way to help new players have a better playing experience. Also, remember not all 'new players' are the same, some might have played other roguelikes, T2..some might have not...each is a different person.

Rather, I think we should provide more info to players through class - meta class actually - descriptions.

Let's check the 'Mage' one

Mages are the wielders of the arcane powers, able to cast powerful spells of destruction or to heal their wounds with nothing but a thought.

A bit 'meh', isn't it?
Doesn't mention what Alchemists and Archmages do at all. Or 'mancers'.
It should, even if it's just a one-liner like

Alchemists don't cast "true"spells, but instead master gem and golemcrafting

Not much, perhaps - but it's something you'd see even if you didn't actually scroll to the 'Alchemist' class.
It might just be enough some people to actually check the Alchemist description(and play them).

Yes, perhaps there will be players won't even bother to read the class description and will just push return after looking at the name. Oh well. We warned them! It's their fault, let them suffer!

This 'short descriptions in meta class info'thing would also go fairly well with Ghostburster idea of showing to-be-unlocked classes as greyed-out.
Yes, it would be a teaser and you'd know SOMETHING about what you're getting...I'd especially like it if there was VALID(but not necessarily 100% spoilerish)info on how to unlock it.
For example, while ghostburster general idea is nice, the 'skilled at fire magic' text for Pyromancer is just ambiguous - some might interpret that as maxxing all talents in the Fire spell tree.
But that's not HOW it works.
It should suggest that you have to 'set the world aflame', 'burn stuff' and so on.

As for 'diminished experience' - again, I'm sure it's true for you sirocco, but for me that's not actually a good argument to prevent others from immediately playing what they want.
It's 'diminished experience' vs 'unable to actually have that experience unless they do other things they might not enjoy at all'.
Although I can sympatize with the first, I sympatize more with the second.
You can always try to improve your experience by placing arbitrary limits on the way you unlock the game.
Tell yourself you won't play this class - even if you could - until you've done X. People seem to enjoy challenges(such as no-shop), but I don't think that by itself would be a good argument to make it the default game experience.


Some say "unlocking gives something to look forward'.
True.
When I unlock something, I mighty try it later. It might be fun or disappointing.
But I might also do the same eventually if it was a non-unlocked class I haven't bothered much with (say Arcane/Shadow Blades and Rogues. I have nothing against them but they're just not among my favorites).
I won't necessarily enjoy that class more because I had to 'work' for it(it's a game, after all).
And I'd rather pick and choose what to play at my leisure, and I don't think the game should suggest I try new things by...barring me from them before a certain cut-off point.

For everyone who thinks the feeling of achievement is important and that it must be mantained even across different playthrough:

Why not focus all of the 'must work hard to get things so I feel satisfied' mentality on achievements instead? They're things whose WHOLE POINT is being unlocked
They are going to be public(or are they already?) once we get a working online player profile system.
I don't care much for them personally, but I understand they are a 'big thing' for some other people.


Also, a final note(and sorry if I wrote too much, but I wanted to provide an 'opposing'viewpoint):
WHY is it so bad if despite these attempts, some 'new players'(not all people who might be annoyed by unlocks are new btw. I've got most but I'm still a bit annoyed at the cryo one...) end up wanting to play some things immediately even if they don't know most of what there is to know about the game? Why is it so bad if they ignore some classes?
Yes, it might be sad that they're missing out on some potentially amazing game content, but can't we just let everyone playthe play they prefer from the start, as this is a single player game?

add-on: ok, this is one of my potentially sillier ideas but..if you really want people to play different stuff, what if the game kept track of all the chars you played(it does already I think) and, at death(or at the char creation screen) suggested, through some text, to play some different classes/character types you ignored?
Say you played classes that focus on melee damage, the game might say 'Perhaps you might be interested in trying some ranged classes such as <list of classes>'. The list of classes could include the short-one line descs I suggested for the meta class desc, too.
Again, this would help with the 'new player'problem(which I don't think is that big a problem at all)

[Charlatan73]

wow i got a discussion going with this one.
let me quickly clarify:
1) I LOVE the unlocking mechanism for additional races and classes. I have many times played a certain way just to try and unlock something. Even if I fail, I still had fun and look forward to the next attempt.
2) Where i was really going was i view a priest type class as a main archetype and therefore thought it would be interesting to consider inclusion prior to the halfway point in the game.
3) as the story stands right now, there should NOT be an opportunity to unlock the two existing divine classes, as they are based out of the far east

I definitely consider the starting classes as a great fit for initial options. I would even think pairing it down would be plausible, with one option for each main archaetype:

Warrior - Fighter
Archer - Bow Archer
Mage - Alchemist (fits sooo well with the story)
Rogue - Rogue

Unlocks could be real simple, for instance, level a hobbit to 5, which unlocks the slinger class, or maybe siding with the assassin lord as opposed to the merchant unlocks shadowblade.

as above as it stands right now it doesn't make sense from a story perspective to include the existing divine classes at the start of the game. but i was thinking maybe there was another flavor in the works that would be more appropriate for middle earth.
without save scumming, etc. I still wouldn't have gotten to the Far East, and I've been playing a LOT since beta 10

[Mithril]

I definitely consider the starting classes as a great fit for initial options. I would even think pairing it down would be plausible, with one option for each main archaetype:

Warrior - Fighter
Archer - Bow Archer
Mage - Alchemist (fits sooo well with the story)
Rogue - Rogue

Unlocks could be real simple, for instance, level a hobbit to 5, which unlocks the slinger class, or maybe siding with the assassin lord as opposed to the merchant unlocks shadowblade.

If going that way, in order to simplify for beginners, then why not also prune the races?

So there in no race choice initially, you always start as as a Dúnedain (or whatever it is going to be called soon), which is a good choice generally and have a tangible special talent.

[Sirrocco]

Zonk - some like the "unlock as you go" playstyle - for reasons such as the ones I've laid out. Some like the "everything is unlocked" playstyle - for reasons such as the ones you've laid out. That's fine. But... there are a *lot* of roguelike games out there where everything starts out unlocked. There are very, very few with a wealth of unlocking possibilities like this game has. Personally, I am delighted by what unlocks (even difficult and distant) bring to the game experience, and I'd hate to see it vanish - and if you personally want to see everything unlocked, it's an easy bit of cheat code, right?

As to Mithril's original point (now made clearer) it certainly seems reasonable to have some divine class that unlocks somehow or other before Tol Falas. Perhaps a Moon Priest? Would have Darkness as their primary resource, would have some mechanism for regaining Darkness, might possibly grab a few darkness powers from the Anorithil, and go the stealth-and-daggers route. Magic and Dex, with Cunning as tertiary. They'd belong to the same faith structure as the Sun Paladins and the Anorithil, but they'd serve as a sort of intelligence service - keeping their eyes on the goings-on in the West. Watching the movement of the orcs could let them tie into the main storyline in any number of places - including perhaps a single-level quest dungeon to take out some sort of otherwise threatening party of orcs. On completion of the quest, the Moon Priest grants you some small but nifty skill bonus and unlocks the class. It also gives a delightful explanation as to where the daggers "Moon" and "Star" came from. Alternately, you could unlock them just by getting both of those artifacts at once (or having them both equipped) - relatively easy to do by grinding through the Maze a few times, which feels like about the right level of effort. I'm not certain how doable this is, but perhaps having both equipped could also open up one of the appropriate trees, a la Sandworm Queen. "As the daggers settle into your hands you suddenly feel a deeper, more spiritual connection with the night." It would be cool if there was also a power that you could use only if you had both equipped at once.