I really like the massive boost to boss experience and the reduction in normal monster experience. This will encourage players to go after all the content you can throw at them, along with the random drops. The boss is no longer just a means to an end (loot), but an end in itself.
Reducing the rate at which monster levels increase could be a great tool for making the sets of parallel dungeons work, but ideally we could make it work without doing that. I like that things get noticeably nastier as you delve deeper into a dungeon. This will be even scarier with the new lower experience from regular monsters, as the gap between their level and yours will be steadily increasing. Heck, you could even go the opposite direction for dungeons that you want to be really evil; monsters go up two or three levels every time you use a >.
It'll just require tuning. I'd say keep it at one monster level per one dungeon level for now, but change the emphasis from monster experience to boss experience. If there's still overleveling trouble, maybe reduce the monster levels per dungeon level.
Ever-increasing challenge = good times
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Susramanian
- Spiderkin
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 3:09 am
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
Yeah, I continued playing with it, bosses give even more exp now (and elite boss more but those are rare).
I'll try to make a beta14 not too far from now so that it can be playtested
I'll try to make a beta14 not too far from now so that it can be playtested
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
I have to ask, with what type of character? It seems like most character classes would have a really hard time w/ Bill at that level (and if bosses are the way to level the shade isn't usually a better option).darkgod wrote:I am playing a tweaked game right now that reduces the exp given by most monsters a lot (think like 15% of normal exp) but makes bosses give a huge exp boost (think 500%)
I only made it throught the trollshaws for now, but it's quite fun.
I made it to bill with level 2 and killing him gave me 2.5 levels. This feels rewarding for having killed a big bad nasty.
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
An archmage
But yes I see your point, I wondered if I should nerf bill & the shade a bit
But yes I see your point, I wondered if I should nerf bill & the shade a bit
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
Although I like the idea of normal monsters giving less and bosses giving more(I think I mentioned it in chat too), these numbers feel a bit too...extreme.darkgod wrote:I am playing a tweaked game right now that reduces the exp given by most monsters a lot (think like 15% of normal exp) but makes bosses give a huge exp boost (think 500%)
I only made it throught the trollshaws for now, but it's quite fun.
I made it to bill with level 2 and killing him gave me 2.5 levels. This feels rewarding for having killed a big bad nasty.
What about making it say, 25%(or even 33%)/400%?
As Edge says, keep in mind that facing the boss at a lower level will be MUCH riskier.
ToME online profile: http://te4.org/users/zonk
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
Bill's kind of a gimmicky fight in a lot of ways.
He has a lot of hit points and he hits like a truck. It seems pretty straight forward but it ends up boiling down to three viable strategies, kill him at range, keep him stunned, or come back and do him later. A fourth option is to stair dance but I'm not sure I'd want to try that at level 2 (and it really shouldn't be considered a viable strategy since it's basically cheating).
I'd suggest cutting his damage out put and dropping stun and/or disarm. Melee has enough problems dealing with Bill's damage without getting stunned or disarmed on top of it. Hell maybe give him Rush in place of stun and disarm so he's not such a gimme for ranged classes.
Something else to consider if players can't level before hitting Bill is that Stone Trolls can be pretty tough enemies for melee as well. They're basically baby Bills.
Maybe everyone should start off with a couple of phase door scrolls and the level range on levels 3 - 5 of Trollshaws should be cut down so you're not having to deal with level 5 Stone Trolls as a level 2 character.
As to Amon Sul, the main reason I avoid that place until after Old Forest is Line of Sight. If I'm not a cunning based character (heightened senses) skeleton archers and skeleton mages are extremely dangerous, high damage enemies. Again not something you want to deal with at low levels.
The Shade shouldn't have two stuns. Freeze or Stunning Blow but not both. His mana thrust should probably be nerfed as well.
Also I agree with Zonk. 15% is a big drop. I'd use conservative adjustments at first and if it's still a problem it can be tweaked some more.
If you make to big of a cut the game may be unplayable for most character classes and no one wants to download beta 14 and find they can't level their favorite class (or grind 4 times as long as usual in order to level).
He has a lot of hit points and he hits like a truck. It seems pretty straight forward but it ends up boiling down to three viable strategies, kill him at range, keep him stunned, or come back and do him later. A fourth option is to stair dance but I'm not sure I'd want to try that at level 2 (and it really shouldn't be considered a viable strategy since it's basically cheating).
I'd suggest cutting his damage out put and dropping stun and/or disarm. Melee has enough problems dealing with Bill's damage without getting stunned or disarmed on top of it. Hell maybe give him Rush in place of stun and disarm so he's not such a gimme for ranged classes.
Something else to consider if players can't level before hitting Bill is that Stone Trolls can be pretty tough enemies for melee as well. They're basically baby Bills.
Maybe everyone should start off with a couple of phase door scrolls and the level range on levels 3 - 5 of Trollshaws should be cut down so you're not having to deal with level 5 Stone Trolls as a level 2 character.
As to Amon Sul, the main reason I avoid that place until after Old Forest is Line of Sight. If I'm not a cunning based character (heightened senses) skeleton archers and skeleton mages are extremely dangerous, high damage enemies. Again not something you want to deal with at low levels.
The Shade shouldn't have two stuns. Freeze or Stunning Blow but not both. His mana thrust should probably be nerfed as well.
Also I agree with Zonk. 15% is a big drop. I'd use conservative adjustments at first and if it's still a problem it can be tweaked some more.
If you make to big of a cut the game may be unplayable for most character classes and no one wants to download beta 14 and find they can't level their favorite class (or grind 4 times as long as usual in order to level).
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Susramanian
- Spiderkin
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 3:09 am
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
Here are some parameters for zones that could give finer control over difficulty and player levels. These could be implemented in addition to the upcoming shift in experience sources. (Or instead of them if they don't pan out).
Minimum Dungeon Level: lowest level possible for generated monsters.
Maximum Dungeon Level: highest level possible for generated monsters.
Minimum Player Level: lowest level at which the player may enter the dungeon.
Maximum Player Level: level at which the player stops getting experience in that dungeon.
Dungeon Level Rate: number of levels monsters gain when the player descends to the next floor of the dungeon.
When entering a dungeon, the game attempts to generate monsters at the player's level, subject to the minimum, of course. Entering Tol Falas at level one will get you killed, as the minimum will be high. The maximum dungeon level should, except in rare cases, be 50 or more. The whole point of these reforms is to avoid strolling through dungeons full of low-level monsters. Every time the player uses a >, the monster levels go up by the Dungeon Level Rate. Currently it's 1 for all dungeons, but setting it higher than that could be fun. The player stops gaining experience once they reach the Maximum Player Level, though the monsters continue to increase in difficulty according to the Dungeon Level Rate. Artifacts dropped by the end boss are generated at the Maximum Player Level, to prevent weird metagaming. Minimum Player Level might have no place in the game at all, but I threw it in there for the sake of symmetry.
The two important ones are Maximum Dungeon Level and Maximum Player Level. The Maximum Dungeon Level should always be huge, to keep the player from ever being stuck wading through armies of trivial monsters. The Maximum Player Level is how we keep the player at the level we want at any given point in the game.
Example: Trollshaws
Minimum Dungeon Level: 1
Maximum Dungeon Level: 50
Minimum Player Level: 1
Maximum Player Level: 10 on first visit, 45 on post-far-east visit
Dungeon Level Rate: 1
Enemies can start as low as level 1 and go as high as 50, and they go up by one level each time the character uses a >. In the early game, the player can't exceed level 10, no matter how tough the monsters get. The player could (for some reason) revisit the Trollshaws just after killing the Master, and find himself facing monsters his own level, but he would get no experience. However, after coming back from the Far East, the player could get up to level 45 in the Trollshaws.
Example: Bob's Dungeon o' Death
Minimum Dungeon Level: 40
Maximum Dungeon Level: 80
Minimum Player Level: 35
Maximum Player Level: 50
Dungeon Level Rate: 3
The player can't even enter this dungeon until he's level 35. Monsters start at the player's level with a minimum level of 40. A level 35 character who visits this dungeon will face level 40 monsters at first. Same with a level 40 character. A level 42 character will start out facing level 42 monsters. Every time the player uses a >, the monsters go up by three levels, maxing out at level 80. Players can level up all the way to 50 in this dungeon.
These parameters would allow all sorts of flexibility and control in dungeon design and game balancing. For example, we could make most endgame dungeons have a Maximum Player Level of 45, and only sprinkle a few places here and there that have Max Player Levels of 46 or more. We could thus control very tightly when and where the player hits level 50. Or maybe no dungeons have a Max Player Level higher than 45, and the only way to get to 50 is to find certain special items. The Dungeon Level Rate could also be a fun gimmick. Imagine a dungeon where it's five or ten, presenting the player with vastly greater challenges on every use of a >.
Additional parameters to fine tune difficulty:
Maximum Relative Monster Level: cap on level differences
Monster Bonus Levels: all monsters get their level boosted by this value
A Maximum Relative Monster Level of 0 would give the situations described above when the player first enters a dungeon, but caps monster levels at 0 above the player's current level. Using a > would have no effect on monster levels, as they cannot exceed the player's level. A Maximum Relative Monster Level of 8 would cap monster levels at eight above the player's level, no matter how deep they go.
Monster Bonus Levels is a simple way to slide difficulty up or down. All monsters are generated subject to the parameters above, and then the Monster Bonus Levels value gets added to their level, thus forcing a certain out-of-depth-ness. This could be affected by the game difficulty chosen at character birth.
Minimum Dungeon Level: lowest level possible for generated monsters.
Maximum Dungeon Level: highest level possible for generated monsters.
Minimum Player Level: lowest level at which the player may enter the dungeon.
Maximum Player Level: level at which the player stops getting experience in that dungeon.
Dungeon Level Rate: number of levels monsters gain when the player descends to the next floor of the dungeon.
When entering a dungeon, the game attempts to generate monsters at the player's level, subject to the minimum, of course. Entering Tol Falas at level one will get you killed, as the minimum will be high. The maximum dungeon level should, except in rare cases, be 50 or more. The whole point of these reforms is to avoid strolling through dungeons full of low-level monsters. Every time the player uses a >, the monster levels go up by the Dungeon Level Rate. Currently it's 1 for all dungeons, but setting it higher than that could be fun. The player stops gaining experience once they reach the Maximum Player Level, though the monsters continue to increase in difficulty according to the Dungeon Level Rate. Artifacts dropped by the end boss are generated at the Maximum Player Level, to prevent weird metagaming. Minimum Player Level might have no place in the game at all, but I threw it in there for the sake of symmetry.
The two important ones are Maximum Dungeon Level and Maximum Player Level. The Maximum Dungeon Level should always be huge, to keep the player from ever being stuck wading through armies of trivial monsters. The Maximum Player Level is how we keep the player at the level we want at any given point in the game.
Example: Trollshaws
Minimum Dungeon Level: 1
Maximum Dungeon Level: 50
Minimum Player Level: 1
Maximum Player Level: 10 on first visit, 45 on post-far-east visit
Dungeon Level Rate: 1
Enemies can start as low as level 1 and go as high as 50, and they go up by one level each time the character uses a >. In the early game, the player can't exceed level 10, no matter how tough the monsters get. The player could (for some reason) revisit the Trollshaws just after killing the Master, and find himself facing monsters his own level, but he would get no experience. However, after coming back from the Far East, the player could get up to level 45 in the Trollshaws.
Example: Bob's Dungeon o' Death
Minimum Dungeon Level: 40
Maximum Dungeon Level: 80
Minimum Player Level: 35
Maximum Player Level: 50
Dungeon Level Rate: 3
The player can't even enter this dungeon until he's level 35. Monsters start at the player's level with a minimum level of 40. A level 35 character who visits this dungeon will face level 40 monsters at first. Same with a level 40 character. A level 42 character will start out facing level 42 monsters. Every time the player uses a >, the monsters go up by three levels, maxing out at level 80. Players can level up all the way to 50 in this dungeon.
These parameters would allow all sorts of flexibility and control in dungeon design and game balancing. For example, we could make most endgame dungeons have a Maximum Player Level of 45, and only sprinkle a few places here and there that have Max Player Levels of 46 or more. We could thus control very tightly when and where the player hits level 50. Or maybe no dungeons have a Max Player Level higher than 45, and the only way to get to 50 is to find certain special items. The Dungeon Level Rate could also be a fun gimmick. Imagine a dungeon where it's five or ten, presenting the player with vastly greater challenges on every use of a >.
Additional parameters to fine tune difficulty:
Maximum Relative Monster Level: cap on level differences
Monster Bonus Levels: all monsters get their level boosted by this value
A Maximum Relative Monster Level of 0 would give the situations described above when the player first enters a dungeon, but caps monster levels at 0 above the player's current level. Using a > would have no effect on monster levels, as they cannot exceed the player's level. A Maximum Relative Monster Level of 8 would cap monster levels at eight above the player's level, no matter how deep they go.
Monster Bonus Levels is a simple way to slide difficulty up or down. All monsters are generated subject to the parameters above, and then the Monster Bonus Levels value gets added to their level, thus forcing a certain out-of-depth-ness. This could be affected by the game difficulty chosen at character birth.
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
Sus, although your system does look better than what we have currently, there's one thing I don't really like - being simply unable to enter a dungeon. I think T2 had that, and I was never a fan of it.
If people want to fight above their level, let them try.
If people want to fight above their level, let them try.
ToME online profile: http://te4.org/users/zonk
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
I like power-levelling.Zonk wrote:If people want to fight above their level, let them try.
Regards
Jon.
Jon.
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teachu2die
- Wyrmic
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:47 am
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
i definitely do not like hard level caps or capping XP by # of kills per level. the situation is bad enough as is, getting no XP as you trek out of the old forest. if people want to level grind a bit, they should be able to.
i think increasing the level scaling in dungeons (i'd almost be ok with nearly unchecked level scaling), and decreasing overall XP from mobs a bit should help a lot. and i really like the idea of the huge XP boost from boss kills. it gives even more incentive to actually hunt them down.
i know it's been discussed elsewhere a bit, but i think XP from normal mobs needs to be adjusted. there is no way that a level 17 giant white ant should give more xp than a level 12 snow giant boulder thrower... some enemies are simply much much deadlier than others, regardless of their level. i've been thoroughly blasted by skeleton mages that were many levels lower than me - to get 0 xp from that kill seems unfair....
i think increasing the level scaling in dungeons (i'd almost be ok with nearly unchecked level scaling), and decreasing overall XP from mobs a bit should help a lot. and i really like the idea of the huge XP boost from boss kills. it gives even more incentive to actually hunt them down.
i know it's been discussed elsewhere a bit, but i think XP from normal mobs needs to be adjusted. there is no way that a level 17 giant white ant should give more xp than a level 12 snow giant boulder thrower... some enemies are simply much much deadlier than others, regardless of their level. i've been thoroughly blasted by skeleton mages that were many levels lower than me - to get 0 xp from that kill seems unfair....
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Susramanian
- Spiderkin
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 3:09 am
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
Zonk wrote:Sus, although your system does look better than what we have currently, there's one thing I don't really like - being simply unable to enter a dungeon. I think T2 had that, and I was never a fan of it.
If people want to fight above their level, let them try.
I agree. I threw it in there for the sake of symmetry. I'd just set the Minimum Player Level to 1 all the time. Some module maker might find the parameter useful, though.
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
Rejigging the xp system more in favour of bosses would be great. It would give a real sense of accomplishment to every boss fight. It would also stop the current problem of levelling all the time (seems like I'm always being asked to up my stats). With the way it is currently in the early game you can live without healing or restoring mana quite easily outside boss fights, simply from the boost you get on the regular level-ups. Shadow/Arcane Blades especially benefit from this. (Of course an alternative solution to that is to remove the free heal on level-up entirely.)
Have to agree heavily with teachu2die about the skewed way xp is handed out at present. It seems unfair to suffer through a hard fight with a difficult monster type only to find you get no experience because it was a few levels too low. Especially when an utterly trivial monster type of a higher level would have given a lot more. There needs to be more balancing of xp gains based on mosnter type, with ants and snakes severely reduced and enemies with special or ranged abilities given much higher xp bonuses.
I don't agree with any sort of cap on getting xp from monsters, no matter how big the difference in levels. Most games do very well with exponentially decreasing gains from lower level monsters - I'd like to see the same in TOME.
Have to agree heavily with teachu2die about the skewed way xp is handed out at present. It seems unfair to suffer through a hard fight with a difficult monster type only to find you get no experience because it was a few levels too low. Especially when an utterly trivial monster type of a higher level would have given a lot more. There needs to be more balancing of xp gains based on mosnter type, with ants and snakes severely reduced and enemies with special or ranged abilities given much higher xp bonuses.
I don't agree with any sort of cap on getting xp from monsters, no matter how big the difference in levels. Most games do very well with exponentially decreasing gains from lower level monsters - I'd like to see the same in TOME.
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
The new boss biased exp system is in place in SVN, I spend a few hours playing with it yesterday (cheating death obviously as I am a very bad player ..)
And the general feeling is that it's much nicer while at the same time providing about the same levels in the end. I got up to rak'hor (not killed him) and was level 31 IIRC. It just feels GREAT when you get 2 or 3 levels from the Master, really feels like an accomplishment :=)
You do not get the same exp from an ant and an orc elite berserker of the same level BTW, it's also rank based. I have made the difference bigger now too, with elites providing more exp.
And the general feeling is that it's much nicer while at the same time providing about the same levels in the end. I got up to rak'hor (not killed him) and was level 31 IIRC. It just feels GREAT when you get 2 or 3 levels from the Master, really feels like an accomplishment :=)
You do not get the same exp from an ant and an orc elite berserker of the same level BTW, it's also rank based. I have made the difference bigger now too, with elites providing more exp.
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
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Final Master
- Sher'Tul
- Posts: 1022
- Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:16 pm
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Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
Wow, I clearly didn't say what I wanted to say. Time to try again.Final Master wrote:I'm already and still pissed that there's a level cap to begin with. If I kill it, I should get something from it. The fact that so many mobs don't drop anything, and if I'm on my way back down through the dungeon, then I more than likely won't get anything at all from a kill of the mob. The Old Forest in particular is very common for this. With it having almost entirely 'natural' enemies that do not have any drops, on my way back out, I'll finish off a pit of snakes or wolves and I won't get a single xp for the genocide.
I'm upset that there is a very short cap of when you gain experience from a kill. 5 levels is dreadfully short, and in areas... well, all areas actually in the west, I don't think I've gained more than 5% of a level on my way out after I cleared the final dlvl. That's what I'm upset about. Hell, in T2 you could still gain partial experience from a white rat at level 15! Here, the white rat is probably the same lvl as in T2, but you won't gain ANY experience after about level 8. This, is a massive problem in my opinion.
And now there is discussion about (almost completely) removing experience gains from non boss npcs! How in the hell are we suppose to level then? If I blunder my talent choices, I can't gain a few levels to make proper adjustments, because I now have to go and finish off a boss that I can't beat at all because of the blunder, and nothing else gives xp.
And the removal of xp from npcs also stops a large part of the joy of fighting out of dlvl. The REASON I go to the OF or Carn Dum first IS for the challenge of fighting (supposedly) npcs 8x more powerful than I currently am. It nets me massive growth rates which then A) Look cool, B) Makes the rest of the game quicker/easier, C) Is more fun. With the fact that so few npcs do anything OTHER than generate xp, taking that aspect away makes all natural enemies pointless roadblocks, and most non-dragon/non-thief/non-boss/nonwhateverthehellessdropsstuff completely void of benefit.
I really feel that the way the current system of such quick cut-offs of xp gain, and now making boss' grant the vast majority of xp will create a crippling effect on players that aren't very good and new players. It will also make playing newly designed (and still being highly tinkered with) classes and abilities much harder to judge, because you can't get them and test them as easily.
Changing the xp system is necessary, yes, but not in this way. I see no reason why the tried, proven, and generally accepted system of xp rate gain of previous rogue-likes such as T2 and Angband can't be used here as well. Or simply create a check for experience, such as this:
Base NPC - 0.5
Ranged Attack (non-spell) - 0.1
Summoner - 0.2
Stun/Freeze - 0.1
Damage Shield - 0.05
Resist Damage (every 10%) - 0.05
Breeder/Splitter - 0.1
Healing capabilities - 0.05
Teleportation - 0.1
Ranged Attack (spell) - 0.15
Cause negative statuses - 0.15
Comes in packs - 0.05
Tunnel - 0.05
So everything starts with a base experience rate of 0.5 xp per kill if equal level. Then you add in all the applicable modifiers, multiply it by it's rank modifier (1-5), then adjust it by 1/2/5% based on the difference in level between player and npc.
I know that that could be a lot of work though...
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Zonk: I'd rather be sick than on fire! :D
Re: Ever-increasing challenge = good times
I don't think you should react so strongly until it gets a bit of testing. It's a big change, sure, but it may still be very manageable and playable. I'm personally looking forward to trying out the new balance. If it turns out to be too harsh then it can be tweaked later, but the idea certainly shouldn't be lampooned straight away.Final Master wrote: I really feel that the way the current system of such quick cut-offs of xp gain, and now making boss' grant the vast majority of xp will create a crippling effect on players that aren't very good and new players. It will also make playing newly designed (and still being highly tinkered with) classes and abilities much harder to judge, because you can't get them and test them as easily.