Ammo creation

All new ideas for the upcoming releases of ToME 4.x.x should be discussed here

Moderator: Moderator

Message
Author
escargot
Thalore
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:55 pm

Re: Ammo creation

#16 Post by escargot »

Forage.

Arco II, the bree-man archer, begun his adventure going straight to get Bill. The first levels of the Trollshaws didn't get me any ammo, I thought that it might broken or something, but I continued. I had only the ~180 elm arrows from the beginning.
I got to the 5th level, and had already given a couple of points to Forage, I thought that else I wasn't gonna get any ammo at all and I was eagerly wanting to be my own ammo supplier.
I found Bill and killed him. Forage triggered. Checked my inventory and saw the 7 arrows of unerring I got from the kill, my first ammo and it was all blue and shiny. Looked good, but I was in the bottom of the Trollshaws, my quiver held about 20 common arrows and I had some very special 7 +500 attack arrows in my backpack.

After some tiles and a couple of mobs I was without ammo. 4 levels to go and no ammo. No ammo.

Looked at my inventory and I only had a steel greatmaul unID'd, Bill's weapon was too heavy for my archer. So after some very risky Trollshaws I was in Bree buying enough ammo to survive 13 levels of the Old Forest, my next target.

I hated forage already. But still, got it to 5 class points and hoped I could get 7 more ego arrows after killing the old willow :?
But it went quite different. I started getting common and magic ammo quite often, I even had to drop my bree-made common arrows to give some use to my own findings. It even got to the point that I was too encumbered to move, in the middle of a fight, because I got too many arrows. So I invested some points in cunning and efficient packing to be in the safe spot, what if I get lucky in a fight, get lots of ammo, but can't run for cover because of my encumbered backpack.

I think Forage needs some fixing. There are several issues:

1.- If you run out of ammo, there's no way you can get more by switching to a melee weapon, since Forage gives you ammo for the equiped weapon.
2.- Go back a dungeon with a switch weapon might work in the trollshaws or even in the OF, but I doubt you can survive a higher level dungeon with no ammo.
3.- Encumbrance. Like never before, getting overburdened can get you killed, and you can't do anything about it. Turning off Forage because you "might" get too much weight is kinda silly, I don't want to miss the opportunity of getting better ammo because I'm already carrying too much stuff, although I do want to decide what ammo to take with me if I can't take it all.
4.- It's really hard to keep an eye on your Forage success rate. In a fight the log isn't big enough to see all your kills, if there are many. And it takes a while to even find a kill, so I ended checking my inventory quite often just to check if I had new ammo, not really knowing where it came from (it would be nice to know which kill got you what kind of ammo, adds to the gamer's superstition).

What I think could solve the issues:

1.- Basic infinite ammo. Very low damage and limited range (2-3 tiles, tops). OR stamina-dependant ammo. OR bows and slings with improved melee damage.
2.- I dunno what the issue with ammo in the trollshaws was. Is Forage dependant of enemy level? Every kill has the same chance of getting ammo? Should I expect that if I'm going through an in range dungeon I WILL get ammo, but if the mobs are underpowered for my level I will most likely not get ammo? I actually don't know if the enemy level of the OF got me more ammo, or the fact I finally got Forage to level 5, or both, or what.
3.- Maybe the easiest way to solve this is to put the newly made/found ammo in the floor.
4.- Maybe a text like the ones of status changes and damage: "You found ammo!"

Any thoughts around?

Grey
Loremaster
Posts: 3517
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:18 pm
Location: London, England
Contact:

Re: Ammo creation

#17 Post by Grey »

Easiest solution in my eyes is to put the ammo on the ground with the rest of the items from a kill.
http://www.gamesofgrey.com - My own T-Engine games!
Roguelike Radio - A podcast about roguelikes

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: Ammo creation

#18 Post by darkgod »

Hum

Well maybe ammo should be removed yes, or at least normal ammo, leaving only special ammo available.
And thus just remove forage. Any replacement ideas?
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

edge2054
Retired Ninja
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 4:38 pm

Re: Ammo creation

#19 Post by edge2054 »

Forage should spawn a drop as Grey suggested.

I also think it'd be alright to give players infinite non-ego ammo at their equipped weapons quality level. Even though it's not realistic it seems like ammo and ammo management is detracting from people's fun.

Then just have forage give a chance to spawn better ammo, either ego or higher base quality if possible.

Incan
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:02 pm

Re: Ammo creation

#20 Post by Incan »

For me forage works good enough.

I just had to buy some ammo from Bree until I got Forage 5/5.

Maybe just improve chance abit? and spawn more blue ammo?

Hakko
Cornac
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:41 am

Re: Ammo creation

#21 Post by Hakko »

Being able to do drop partial stacks of ammo, e.g., 200 out of the 643 elm arrows (8.3-10.4) in inventory would help.

Zonk
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:01 pm

Re: Ammo creation

#22 Post by Zonk »

I said this in chat, and DG said he probably won't use it, but I still felt like it's worth mentioning(someone might use this in a module or something)...
maybe instead of Forage we could have/have had a skill that let you consume LESS ammo, by giving you a % chance of being able to recover the ammo you fired.
ToME online profile: http://te4.org/users/zonk
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system

Repton
Archmage
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:17 am

Re: Ammo creation

#23 Post by Repton »

Zonk wrote:I said this in chat, and DG said he probably won't use it, but I still felt like it's worth mentioning(someone might use this in a module or something)...
maybe instead of Forage we could have/have had a skill that let you consume LESS ammo, by giving you a % chance of being able to recover the ammo you fired.
Like Pack Rat?

Zonk
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:01 pm

Re: Ammo creation

#24 Post by Zonk »

Repton wrote:Like Pack Rat?
Almost - the difference is you'd actually have to recover the arrows you fired(they'd end up in the square you fired them at, obviously).
ToME online profile: http://te4.org/users/zonk
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system

Grey
Loremaster
Posts: 3517
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:18 pm
Location: London, England
Contact:

Re: Ammo creation

#25 Post by Grey »

In my experience with other roguelikes this is really annoying. Recovering the ammo is a nuisance and you end up with lots of small stacks of ammo.
http://www.gamesofgrey.com - My own T-Engine games!
Roguelike Radio - A podcast about roguelikes

Sirrocco
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1059
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:56 am

Re: Ammo creation

#26 Post by Sirrocco »

I'd actually had a similar thought. Personally, I'm somewhat fond of the idea of ammo, but I can see how it would get to be a problem for archer-types. Why not have the skill preserve ammo, rather than creating it? Higher levels of skill lead to preserving more impressive ammo types. That way, the normal folks still have to manage ammo fro the bows they use (though that shouldn't be a big deal - they're not archers) while the archer types get to ride whatever the best ammo is that they've found that's under their cap, while still keeping a bundle or two of the high-quality, still-expendable stuff for the really tough fights. When maxxed out, it should pretty much indefinitely preserve any ammo of any quality.

Preserving arrows at impact spots can be okay - but only if you have autopickup and automerge for them. If you have to do anything other than just walk over the target, it's really quite irritating.

Repton
Archmage
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:17 am

Re: Ammo creation

#27 Post by Repton »

darkgod wrote:Hum

Well maybe ammo should be removed yes, or at least normal ammo, leaving only special ammo available.
And thus just remove forage. Any replacement ideas?
Three ideas:

- Far shot: single shot with extended range.
- Frictionless shot: single shot with increased travel speed.
- Ricochet: bounce a shot off a wall, to turn a corner.

Gwai
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:55 pm

Re: Ammo creation

#28 Post by Gwai »

Just to have said it, currently forage is a serious problem for undead archers/slingers. They start with say 8 arrows and have no way to buy more if they don't happen to get lucky with forage!

Edit: In fact, I'm trying to find where the file that declares what starting characters get, because as soon as I do, I'm editing more starting arrows into it to make skelly archers playable.
Last edited by Gwai on Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: Ammo creation

#29 Post by darkgod »

Gwai, the easy solution to that is to not let them start with ego ammo :)
But I agree I'm not taht satisfied of forage :/
i'll give infinite basic ammo a try I think
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Gwai
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:55 pm

Re: Ammo creation

#30 Post by Gwai »

Then when I edit the files, I'll give my skelly archer lots of basic ammo.

Post Reply