I think that check for the various magical resources (mana, vim, positive, negative) when first entering the wilderness is a loophole... why should the Zigur forgive you for picking up a magic-based reward if you remembered to pop into the wilderness at the beginning of the game? Maybe the check in the eyal map should be completely removed, and instead a similar check added to Game:changeLevel or an actor blocking the path within Zigur that initiates a dialog ("You are not welcome here..."). Once you complete the anti-magic challenge and gain access to the talent category you can do as you please and be barred from Zigur.
In summary, the Zigur appear to despise magic and can sense its presence, so they should punish regardless of where you picked up that magic. One could extend this to check for runes on the player, or even in the player's inventory if you wanted... after all you are dealing with a bunch of zealots. Who in their right mind wouldn't want magic?
Is the tree really so strong as to even call for such draconian measures? Nevermind the fact that it's a very real possibility of dying while pursuing the 10 levels without magic, let alone the pit fight.
Only a few classes can reliably aim for anti-magic and have the stat points to drop into willpower to power it.
I think, if anything, it's requirements need to be loosened up a little bit.
Punishing people for taking escort rewards is a Bad Idea. It would make the process of getting antimagic excruciating, unpleasant, and weird, while not necessarily upping the difficulty all that much. (so... in order to both get antimagic and have all my escort rewards, I need to visit Zigur first thing, then adventure exclusively in trollshaws1 until I get to about level 4-5ish, then take out the thieves, then jump to the maze/sandworm lair until level 11? With no teleport or mapping for the Sandworm Lair? Sure I can do that, but it seems overly aggravating)
On the flip side, I find I don't mind the current level. It's a bit irritating, but not crippling. You wouldn't want it to be *too* easy.
Mind if you wanted to make it a more significant choice - to give it both more benefits and a permanent drawback so that it really would change the way you play even after you get the abilities (without being a direct nerf) that could be kind of cool, and might even be worth cranking up the difficulty a bit - but that's talking about a different thing entirely.
Took a skeleton fighter into Zigur at level 5. Came back at 15, having taken down the blighted ruins, shaws, Korpul, maze, old forest, th'lumberjack thing, and dipped my head into Daikara. Didn't grind at any point -- just went in, scanned the level for loot, and went to the next one. Sandworms need not be involved with the process.
Remember, you only need to avoid magic-related escort rewards until you reach Zi... oh. Oh, wait, you were talking about in relation to th'OP's proposed changes. Reading failure on my point, sorry. I see what you're saying, now.
Yeah, I'm with you. Tightening the limits on getting antimagic would be a design mistake, imo. Perhaps more thematic, but all you gain out of it is a little internal consistency and a lot of frustration. Th'gain's not worth the cost.
Now, if you jumped the reward a bit, say to things above and beyond unlocking the antimagic tree (X number of free class or generic points, ferex, a notable stat-boost, very impressive piece of equipment, etc.), then there might be more to say for tightening the reigns.
If it's a game-long penalty, I'd avoid making it a piece of equipment - it would have to be horribly overpowered when you got it, useless in endgame, or both. Poor trade, really. On the other hand, it would certainly be reasonable to bar Zigur to anyone who got the antimagic training and then turned around and used magical stuff - after you get the tree unlocked, being barred from Zigur just isn't that big a deal, and it would be thematic. Having done that, you could slowly put stuff in Zigur that would *make* it a big deal, eventually getting to the point where people might be inclined to stay magic-free the whole game through in spite of the various frustrations.
i don't think the requirements for gaining anti-magic need to be upped, but maybe access to the city should be cut off if you use magic after gaining anti-magic. there could be additional nice high-level quests available there if you manage to continue avoiding rune and spell use throughout the 20's and 30's, and cool stores that unlock later on.
To summarize, people don't want anti-magic to be more restrictive because it is already difficult to get and isn't THAT good. I like teach's idea to extend the anti-magic thread with more quests, and potentially more talents/equipment/etc. I'll save thoughts on that for another day and another thread. How about this change to achieve internal consistency and not penalize people: the resource pools play no part at all in determining whether or not the Zigur town appears (or is accessible). The only factors will be if magic spells or items have been used, or if you have become too friendly with the mages. The reasoning here is that the Zigur have been observing you instead of "sensing" that you have magic. If a Sun Paladin has never used Searing Light etc, how would the Zigur know he is a Sun Paladin?
I think that if you start the game with a magic-based resource pool, then having that hide Zigur would be fine. There's a difference between picking up a knack or two from an escort quest and having it be one of your primary resource pools. Of course, the whole "hiding" thing is a bit odd too. How are they hiding their city from mages and mages only? Possibly have it be an armed fort instead - it's not that you can't find the place, it's that they won't let you in - and when you approach, they actually have a conversation message to say why they're not letting you in.
Speaking about this to DG he told me the current system (hiding Zig on wilderness creation) is only a stopgap. Don't know what he wanted to do with it in the future.
I like the idea of more Antimagic related quests, skills, skillpoints (maybe a new category you only get through these quests? class, general, antimagic, category) and items. I loved the way the *thank daggers worked in tome2, so you could make it a leveling weapon as reward, which wouldn't be overpowered at start, and still a viable option in endgame. I'd suggest letting the player choose the weapon type though.
Another idea would be for the zealots (love that expression) to use 'Mother Nature' to battle this 'Unnatural Horror' and have fungi and molds with antimagical properties grow on their bodies - eww... And, yes, I loved the Symbiants in tome2
greycat wrote:An intervention was required (kill -9)
Thematically, I'd love to see the Thaloren Elves dabbling in fungal symbiosis. There's something quite appealing about the ancient elves who stick to their forest having a secret lab....
...and it would give us a place to put the slime tree back in the game, which would be nice. My wyrmic characters and I miss the slime tree.
I actually had a class concept for a symbiotic hero around a while back - wilder archery with less damage, more nifty control tricks, and mold summoning. If/when I get back the ergs for it, I might try to resuscitate the thing.
Summoning is a wild gift, it's natural.
Wild gifts are not affected by antimagic
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
I find it odd that such zealous luddites are so erudite about the practices of wilders. People shouldn't be able to breath fire or summon monsters out of nothing, both of those would classify as 'magic' to your standard yokel.
Not in this setting. Anything that uses the powers of natural creatures (and dragons and such are natural in this setting) is non-magical. Mythical perhaps, but not magical.
