Change/Add new Repented Thief escort Generic tree unlock

[foolofsound]

The majority of classes already have access to Survival, and those that don't very rarely want to spend a Category point to unlock it. Instead/in addition to, make them able to teach Mobility, a low-accessibility but very useful defensive/utility tree that is better linked thematically to the Rogue metaclass.

[Cathbald]

You want everyone to have access to trained reactions? Are you insane?
If you want it, get the worldly knowledge prodigy but don't let escorts give it. Thief give very useful talents with device mastery and track already, I see no reason to give them an op tree above that.

[foolofsound]

Trained Reactions by itself is comparable to Chant Acolyte:

Trained Reaction
*Scales off Defense, which basically any class can easily get.
*Requires 44 Dexterity to cap, which for most classes will take a fair amount of stat manipulation. The only Dexterity based classes that don't have natural access to this tree are Temporal Warden, Gunslinger, and Psyshot.
*30% damage reduction on hits of 15% max life with a 5 turn cooldown.
*Forbids heavy/plate armor

vs

Chant Acolyte
*Scales off Magic; almost half the classes in the game are Magic based, only two of which have natural access to this tree. Only takes 20 Magic to cap, which is trivial for any class.
*25% max life
*15% physical, fire, cold, lighting, acid resistance
*33% all damage reduction against ranged attacks
*Trained Reactions costs 7 generics to access; for 8 generics in Chants, you also get a debuff cure as well from Chant Adept
*Forbids Zigur


It's possible to argue that in terms of the full tree, Mobility is superior to Light, but again, half the classes in the game already want to invest heavily in Magic anyway.

[Cathbald]

Almost every class will raise DEX if only as third stat for defense anyway.
Magic is useless if you're not a mage or took arcane might.

You only have one chant at once and not three like you imply by putting everything right after another without using "or"
Trained reaction can proc several times in a turn, the 5 cd is the time it takes to turn it on again if it gets deactivated.
Disengage, tumble, and evasion are all good talents whereas chant illuminate is almost worthless and chant radiant is worthless if you don't do fire/light damage.
You need 4 points in chant adept to cure debuff since you have the category at 0.8.

Mobility is massively better than chants. Light is huge, and so are tinkers for that matter but I also think those should be less easily accessible.

[foolofsound]

Almost every class will raise DEX if only as third stat for defense anyway.
Magic is useless if you're not a mage or took arcane might.

Again, just under half the classes in the game have Magic as a primary stat, and Arcane Might is pretty good on a number of others.

You only have one chant at once and not three like you imply by putting everything right after another without using "or"

I was listing the options, and assumed you knew what I was talking about.

Trained reaction can proc several times in a turn, the 5 cd is the time it takes to turn it on again if it gets deactivated.
You need 4 points in chant adept to cure debuff since you have the category at 0.8.

Thanks for the corrections here. Nevertheless, I would continue to argue that 25% more HP or 33% ranged damage reduction are of similar value to Trained Reactions alone.

Disengage, tumble, and evasion are all good talents whereas chant illuminate is almost worthless and chant radiant is worthless if you don't do fire/light damage.
Mobility is massively better than chants.

All of this is true, but also not what I was arguing. You specifically called out Trained Reactions, so I posted a comparable skill.

Light is huge, and so are tinkers for that matter but I also think those should be less easily accessible.

Ok, but they are available, and there's not a lot of point in arguing about how my suggestion would be overpowered in an alternate version of the game without them.


Also, I neglected to mention, but fully half the classes in the game have Survival unlocked by default, and I believe every class has natural access to it.

[Micbran]

its not just about trained reactions, its about the whole tree

[Cathbald]

I don't think just doing a back and forth between us two will bring much to the discussion at this point, so I'll wait for other people to chime in.

If you want us to keep arguing I'll mp you though :p

[foolofsound]

its not just about trained reactions, its about the whole tree

I mean, I also pointed to Light and as Cathbald said, the Tinker trees. Mobility is strong, but so are a lot of the other options you can pick up from escorts.

[Micbran]

its not just about trained reactions, its about the whole tree

I mean, I also pointed to Light and as Cathbald said, the Tinker trees. Mobility is strong, but so are a lot of the other options you can pick up from escorts.

which means we should add more? Power creep is a thing y'know.

[foolofsound]

which means we should add more? Power creep is a thing y'know.

It still represents an opportunity cost; it's points that you then cannot also put elsewhere. How many escort trees can your builds usually afford to unlock and put points into?

[Sheila]

Points in survival are globally useful and more often than not save you some valuable generics, so it's a win-win
Opening Trained Reactions to just about anyone with escorts is pretty much not happening, it was planned that way.

[foolofsound]

Opening Trained Reactions to just about anyone with escorts is pretty much not happening, it was planned that way.

Can you break down for me why it's too strong for an escort when Chant Acolyte is available? Or why Mobility is too strong when Tinkering or Light is available?

[Sheila]

Light got some nerfs and should possibly be removed from escorts, but might not
Chants might've been an overlook that wasn't given much serious thought after buffs.
And tinkers probably needs some rebalancing, but most definitely no point to keep adding problematic trees that will be scummed for or needed on all characters

That's more or less what I talked about with Shibari and I agree on all of it, not sure how DG feels on the matter, but adding TR for everyone is highly unlikely, we don't want frontloaded robe/light armor classes running around with TR anyways

[foolofsound]

I mean, i guess it's a question of if Escorts should give interesting cross-class abilities, or just act as a few bonus Generic points in common tree. At the moment, the problem is that most of the escorts do the former, with a handful doing the latter, which makes it all the more disappointing when the latter shows up.

[PseudoLoneWolf]

I mean, i guess it's a question of if Escorts should give interesting cross-class abilities, or just act as a few bonus Generic points in common tree. At the moment, the problem is that most of the escorts do the former, with a handful doing the latter, which makes it all the more disappointing when the latter shows up.

Personally I think it would be beneficial to buff escorts and reduce the number if them - i.e. make them slightly less likely to kill themselves and give you 4-5 rather than 8, but make their rewards more valuable. Right now escorts feel like a requirement rather than a bonus, and the things they're required for are, to be totally honest, usually quite boring - getting a tinker unlock or a Light unlock is exciting and valuable, getting a level or two of Track is necessary on every character, and everything else (barring alchemists that give you staff/star mastery) is really just... well, stun fodder, mostly.

However, I'm pretty sure I've heard DG and/or Shibari flat out saying that this isn't going to happen.