Block mechanics, and related prodigies...

[Delmuir]

The block mechanic is... problematic in this game as rarely is it worth the turn to block instead of attack. More so, having two prodigies for it only makes it worse as it now requires a massive investment in order to suck less. Here is my solution:

1. Block shouldn't end when hit or using another skill, et al, just like with Eternal Guard.

2. Activating block should only take 1/2 of a turn.

3. Eternal Guard prodigy should still extend the block duration 1 turn but it should also grant a free block and move shield-strike chance.

Historically, shield strikes were very devastating, even more so than a sword strike. Shield strikes were often bone-crushing, fast, and fatal.

So, if you block and then attack OR move with block still active, you gain a % chance of doing a free shield strike on any enemy in melee range. It'd be 100% instant, automatic, and brutal.

Thus, a player would then have cause to use block as often as possible as well as encouraging enemies/players to back away from a blocking character.

4. Spectral Shield... Magic damage should already be included in the block ability, sans prodigy. Why shouldn't it? If you throw a fireball or ice spike at me, a shield can still block it.

But what about mind damage? Well that's something I don't think a shield should be able to block. That'd be the weakness of the new and improved shield bearers. Besides, when saved against, mind damage is cut in half. I think that's fine.

So, what can Spectral Shield do now? I think it should be a passive that grants a 15% increase in all forms of shields... block values, damage shields, even anti-magic shield, deflection, Sacrifice, psionic shields, and so on. Everything gets 15% better.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

Personally, I think this would make blocking actually useful.

[astralInferno]

The immediate problem I see is that archmage damage shields are already potentially ridiculous. They don't need another high-end boost. Other than that I like your ideas.

[Radon26]

1)
kind of agree.
at least for the talents that don't use weapon. if you continue the block, attacking would seem a bit... awkward?

2)
... not sure about that one. if you are blocking, you WANT the enemy to hit you right?
makes sense with 1) is also applied, but that would already make it a solid bust.
and don't forget the 3rd talent in shield offense, to make a permablock.

3)
only if the enemy is the same direction as your movement.
also, that shield attack might end up auto-activating block? nah, that would be kind of broken.

although, i made some calculation before, and i believe the damage output towards a countered enemy is already quite strong, with assault basically being a nuke.

4)
xx% of the block value added to a shield effect.
if it is a shield (item) prodigy, then it should have something to do with shields.

[Delmuir]

1. Classically speaking, attacking and blocking simultaneously IS how shield combat is done. Why this game chose to separate it is beyond me. A little research would have served them well. A fighter with a shield doesn't just stand around "blocking." The act of blocking is an active part of fighting.

2. I'm not sure I was clear about this one Radon... Activating the block condition should only take half a turn. It should last a full turn (or longer, depending). This gives you a chance to occasionally block and then perform other actions with block still active.

3. No! Within the movement itself, there's no reason to arbitrarily restrict it to the graphical limitations of the game. A skilled combatant could just as easily move backwards while swinging his shield to the side or to his back.

4. Sure, whatever. I don't feel particularly strong about this one so please, I encourage as many counter ideas as possible until someone comes up with a good one. Maybe you already have.

On the same subject:

The immediate problem I see is that archmage damage shields are already potentially ridiculous. They don't need another high-end boost.

Probably right. I honestly just didn't have a good idea. I thought I did with an entirely separate idea but then I realized that it was stupid and dropped it.

I encourage better suggestions.

[Radon26]

1)
if you are holding the shield exactly between you and the enemy (speaking of realism, so you can just ignore), you kind of block your view.
so, you can either try stabbing the air in front of you, hoping the shield don't impede your hand movement, or, in that split second right after negating enemy attack (status effect applied, "counterstriking") you can move it to the side, and, now with enemy visible and exposed, deliver a heavy strike.
in that moment, you are not blocking anymore. i am not saying however that you cant reactivate block right afterwards.
since talents that don't use weapon, don't require you to lower your shield, i thought that that rule should definitely apply tot hem.
if you disagree, very well.

2) i know the duration, and activation time are different.
i meant that if talent's were canceling the block, then your ability to act before enemy would just turn into "spend 50% of a turn to put your talent on cooldown.
so 2), without 1), could be a detriment, while if both were applied, the upgrade would be potentially massive.

3)
Roughly the same then, like swipe or fearless cleave, only not actual AoE. you are NOT hitting an enemy you just left behind, that's hack'n'back!
and keep in mind, its a chance every time you move, even if a small one! pretty sure bulwarks are supposed to be immovable defenders, not melee skirmishers.

[Frumple]

... bulwarks play more like melee skirmishers than most classes, though, particularly once step up is online and upgraded. The class is kinda' riddled with talents meant to make and/or close space -- something like half their trees either have knockbacks or gap closers/other mobility talents in them. They've got more mobility and space control than most of the other classes, near as I can recall.

The concept may be immovable defender, but the implementation definitely isn't. Not anymore, anyway. Haven't been since battle tactics was added to the game, really, and it's departed further since.

Mind you, that may be reason to argue for reworking, but, well... it'd be a full class overhaul, not a block change, that would manage that. Speaking of which, raz has done some pretty interesting work with bastions, including some block changes that folks interested in block may want to check out.

... personally, all I really want to see happen to block is to have eternal guard changed so it makes block a sustain. 25-33% global speed penalty and unending block, when activated. Basically make auto-use a sustain to cut down on player fiddling :V

E: And speaking of that, remember folks, particularly with small changes like the ones suggested, addons are a magnificent way to prototype and test the proposed changes

[Radon26]

... well, yeah, step up IS a thing...
you've got a point there.

i dunno about the % you provided, but having the talent live up to it's name WOULD be nice.

[posetcay]

Bulwark is beyond salvaging, it should get a complete rework in my opinion. Also keep in mind that bulwark isnt the only class that can block, buffing block can make already strong classes like sun paladin a bit too strong. Also bulwark might be weak as a class, but bulwark rares/randbosses are one of the biggest dangers for melee fighters. Melee are already at a disadvantage, overpowered bulwark rares are the last thing we need.

[Delmuir]

E: And speaking of that, remember folks, particularly with small changes like the ones suggested, addons are a magnificent way to prototype and test the proposed changes

Yeah... I'm not making add-ons.

My only goal is to stimulate discussion such that maybe, just maybe someone will take a good idea (from whatever source) and go make an add-on and then hopefully add it to the regular game.

I won't be doing that.

[Zeyphor]

I like block the way it already is, as well as the block prodigies; they're just fine imo

[Frumple]

i dunno about the % you provided, but having the talent live up to it's name WOULD be nice.

Global penalty'd mostly just to simulate what already happens when you set block to auto-use after you get eternal guard. You miss out every 3rd or so turn/action as-is, in exchange for block just staying up. Making it a sustain with a speed penalty'd do roughly the same thing, just without nearly as much message log spam

... and you really should consider it more, del. T4's coding isn't that bad, as evidenced by the fact that I've manage to cobble together anything for it. Especially if you check other addons or in-game code that does roughly what you want to do. You could probably manage some small changes with just a bit of time investment.

[Nagyhal]

4. Spectral Shield... Magic damage should already be included in the block ability, sans prodigy. Why shouldn't it? If you throw a fireball or ice spike at me, a shield can still block it

This is something that has alwasy irked me, though I can appreciate that resistance to all damage types goes beyond the intended power level of the current Block...

Still, if you think about it, there are plenty of even stupider situations, like when weapon attacks have their damage changed to non-physical. Suddenly these weapons can bypass shields that before have blocked them fully.

I'd like to see shields that, when it comes to non-physical damage, can deflect "point source" damage fully (as with a bolt, beam or weapon strike) but give partial protection when it comes to area damage (as with a ball, cone or AoE field.)

Now we're probably getting way too simulationist (ToME isn't very simulationist, in case anybody hasn't noticed yet) and way beyond the design scope of ToME in general, but... at least we can dream!