Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

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Delmuir
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#16 Post by Delmuir »

HousePet wrote:I wanted to try something a bit different just to be sure we aren't confusing familiarity with 'good'.
Its interesting that people will say a class is above average and then say that half of the stuff it has is not worth taking. (and very weird that people say you are ruining the class if you take out Rampage, a locked category with one three goodish talents.)
A class that only has two great categories (one of them locked), a broken resource and some dubious generic talents sounds like something that needs an overhaul to me. :P
But anyway, the final product will be a hybrid between the reworked version and the original.
Familiar with good. A sound skeptical premise. I agree.

As for "above average," well... yes. I think it is, but that speaks to how poor so many of the other classes are in my opinion but also to a variable that you've maybe not considered... Cursed is the closest thing to a "bump" class in the game. It's simple to play and that's a nice change-up.

Not every class needs to be complicated... it's nice to have one that isn't.

Also, I think Rampage is an excellent 5-5-5-0 categories. Fears is also a pretty great category and is only limited by undead immunity to it. Still, it's pretty good and were it not for the virtue of the other categories, I'd use it all the time. I think Curse has far more great skills than people seem to think, such as Harass Prey (a crazy-underrated skill in my opinion). I also happen to like the Unnatural Form category...

My point is this: if the goal of Cursed is to be simple, intuitive, and dare I say dumb class, then I think it has largely succeeded. By game's end, it's a bloody murder-machine. The start is punishing but still... it does what it appears designed to do. Few other classes manage that.

In terms of design, Summoner and Cursed are the "simplest" classes to play but also the most elegant in their design, two points that are probably causal. They're the "boring" classes but the game needs a few of those.

Far, far, far too many of the classes in this game are needlessly complicated, muddled even. A class should be as complex as it needs to be and no more or less. Too often, things are complicated for seemingly no purpose.

Entire mechanics in this game are incoherent. Entire classes are bloated messes (Necro is still the most guilty).

The premise of class design has to be this: how do you want it to play?

That's the question Housepet. How do you want the Cursed to play? If you change the way it plays then there's no other class in the game that plays that way. If you change it, how do you change? Does it become like "x" class? Is that necessary?

Are you changing Cursed to make it play MORE like it was seemingly intended or are you just fiddling for fun, a bit of trial and error fun? Obviously, you do what you want but I think the premise is a solid guide.

That's my problem with the Necro... it's best builds just play like a crappy Archmage instead of the much more interesting hybrid-summoner. That's just poor design.

Then you have the Anorithil, which, does the same thing: plays like a really, really clumsy Archmage.

I don't aim to be nothing but critical but I read all of these posts and discussions and then I see designs and solutions... everyone is fumbling around trying to figure out how to fix the problem but few seem to agree on what the problem IS.

Some of you seem to want every class to play the same, micromanagement-intensive way. Sometimes that's fun but other times, playing something different would be nice. That's why there's an insane and madness difficulty level... for people who want the game to be an even longer, harder slog.

So I ask again, HOW do you want Cursed to play? Once you know that, designing to that end is not particularly complicated. Based on what I've seen, I don't think you've answered that question completely yet.

As an add-on, it doesn't matter what I think of the end-result because it's not replacing anything but consider whether it's ultimately worth rebuilding Cursed or simply designing a new class.

HousePet
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#17 Post by HousePet »

For Afflicted classes in general, I think they should feel like they are Cursed in some way, that some things are just out of their control. They should feel a bit crazy. Sure they hate everything, but how does that affect them? Do they go into mania or depression?

Cursed should be a tough or agile melee fighter with debuff application as a theme mechanic.
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Delmuir
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#18 Post by Delmuir »

HousePet wrote:For Afflicted classes in general, I think they should feel like they are Cursed in some way, that some things are just out of their control. They should feel a bit crazy. Sure they hate everything, but how does that affect them? Do they go into mania or depression?

Cursed should be a tough or agile melee fighter with debuff application as a theme mechanic.
And that's the crux of the issue. That doesn't entirely answer the question.

How it plays is a question concerning how one interacts with the game. It's a player-oriented question. All of the rest is just narrative, story, and iconography designed to enhance that.

I wrote a post, just now, about this very question. I don't presume to have all of the answers but I'm generally pretty good at asking the right questions... or at least people pay me to do it so I guess if I'm bad at it, don't tell anyone.

As to the point about "out of their control," I would suggest that this translates into variance. The player ought not be able to control all of the factors surrounding cause and effect.

HousePet
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#19 Post by HousePet »

Well I did have a headache at the time and realised afterwards I'd only half answered the question...
It is also a fairly open ended question that could be interpreted in lots of ways.

Mechanically its a bit 'work with what happens'. You have some decent melee skills that you can use as you want, but you also have things like Gloom and Fears, which are random about what they inflict. Rampage/Misery is also a great tool, but you don't have direct control of when you can use it. That is to tie in with 'You are Cursed, now deal with it' flavour of the class.
Early on you use stamina mostly. You were on your way to Warrior metaclass before you curse got you. Later on its more hate based as the curse grows.
I've added some talents in to give explicit synergies with inflicting debuffs. They kick in late as they also give you back some control over what those random debuffers are doing for you.
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jenx
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#20 Post by jenx »

What about, at level 5/5 for first two talents, you gain the ability to alter the curse on an object? (nerf with long CD, or it only works once per object etc).
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Delmuir
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#21 Post by Delmuir »

jenx wrote:What about, at level 5/5 for first two talents, you gain the ability to alter the curse on an object? (nerf with long CD, or it only works once per object etc).
That's a fairly elegant solution... but perhaps I'd temper it a bit:

1. The active skill that lets you boost a curse by 2 is gained at level 5 so perhaps the second skill gains a similar active ability that lets you change a curse on an item.

2. When changing a curse, it's random, minus the original curse. In other words, it won't let you pick your optimal curse but it will let you avoid one if you want to.

Atarlost
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#22 Post by Atarlost »

HousePet wrote:For Afflicted classes in general, I think they should feel like they are Cursed in some way, that some things are just out of their control. They should feel a bit crazy. Sure they hate everything, but how does that affect them? Do they go into mania or depression?
That's very close to saying you think they should be a crapshoot and deliberately annoying to play.
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HousePet
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#23 Post by HousePet »

Umm any bit in particular?
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Atarlost
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#24 Post by Atarlost »

HousePet wrote:Umm any bit in particular?
Feeling cursed sounds a lot like a call for annoying mechanics. Not being in control is almost synonymous with annoying mechanics or obfuscated UI. Feeling crazy usually means either annoying mechanics or a life meter called sanity that you also have to maintain that gives a different death message.
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HousePet
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#25 Post by HousePet »

That's a bit pessimistic. :P
You aren't in complete control of what items and enemies spawn in this game, and no matter how hard you try you can't stop a certain plot item falling into the wrong hands. But that stuff is what makes the game fun, not annoying.
Going from feeling that your character is a bit crazy to a sanity/life bar is a bit of a leap.
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astralInferno
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#26 Post by astralInferno »

It sounds similar to how Cursed Aura plays out now. That feels out of your control and unpredictable, IMO.

Atarlost
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#27 Post by Atarlost »

HousePet wrote:That's a bit pessimistic. :P
You aren't in complete control of what items and enemies spawn in this game, and no matter how hard you try you can't stop a certain plot item falling into the wrong hands. But that stuff is what makes the game fun, not annoying.
Going from feeling that your character is a bit crazy to a sanity/life bar is a bit of a leap.
Lacking control over the environment makes a game fun*. Lacking control over your PC makes a game not fun.

And a sanity gauge isn't a leap at all. It's looking at the major precedents of games in which PCs can go crazy.


* except if the game rules make assumptions about the environment that aren't being met, though that's usually a pen and paper problem. D&D 3.x and Pathfinder are somewhat notorious for breaking down if certain magic items aren't sold on the open market. Or in ToME terms if a bug was introduced that prevented lamps from being generated it would be out of your control, but it obviously wouldn't be fun.
Digitochracy
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HousePet
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Re: Display Afflicted curses on gear in the shop, etc.

#28 Post by HousePet »

I only said "feels like", and I have never found any sanity gauge mechanic fun and have no intention of making one.

But anyway, you can just go look at what I've done, rather than extrapolating from a few sentences.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.

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