"Awakening" or subclass quests [spoilers]

[Atarlost]

At late game, when they have little scope for adapting to it?

That's what the chunk of free points is intended to compensate for. With the level 50 chunk the player has a substantial number of points left at level 30 or even 35. Early enough to adapt but late enough that it adds spice when the game was getting dull. Probably later for Yeeks, but they're supposed to be a challenge race anyways.

[Suslik]

We already have a "random skill tree" as a reward for random escorts. I can't say having something like this is a good or bad idea, it's just completely out of topic, I'm afraid.

Class advancement is definitely meant to be pre-designed and pre-balanced, not cheap random stuff that may either make you OP(hello anorithil escort) or go "meh"(hello alchemist) ignoring it altogether. Mechanically-wise best bet would be to slightly alter effects of existing talents as well as a class-specific passive that enhances their basic mechanics in some way. Unique "advanced" skill tree would be good as well but it's way too hard to balance properly. And don't forget about thematic aspect of class advancement - random talent tree is not thematic, it's.. well, random. Class advancement by definition is something that specializes your class in class-specific way.

Examples of passive bonuses and skill alterations that classes can get upon class advancement:
- paradox mages may get alternative usage for their mass teleport spell: instead of teleporting a group randomly, they may teleport a single foe to a target area.
- reavers may definitely use some more synergy with diseases on their foes. we already discussed life leech based on amount of diseases affecting melee target.
- zerkers may reduce melee weapon skill cooldowns with every bump attack.
- summoners may be allowed to switch to manual summon controlling without taking a turn.
- another idea for paradox mages: temporal fugue clones may have automatic control switch to the player whenever they get a turn to act. So instead of being AI-controlled player gets an option to control all the clones at once. This idea may be used for other classes that have a single yet ability-rich summon as an alchemist.
- skirmishers may replenish stamina with every basic attack.
- rogues might get either an ability to put one of their traps instantly once in a while or to have 3 poisons active at once at increased sustain cost.


These are just examples of what class-specific talents may be. Do notice that stuff like "incresed resistances" and "increased damage" is generally avoided because it's not what advancement it about. General idea is to give some kind of boost to one of class iconic trees so that even if other classes have the same tree, there should always be just one class that can specialize in it and use it most effectively. Giving rogues some kind of advantage in using poisons tree may be a good idea both thematically and mechanically as well as making zerker the only class who can use 2-h's actually better than any other class due to their unique cooldown reduction ability. Advancement is meant to further unique-ify a class, not just make it stronger.

[HousePet]

How about having a quest for each damage element which would give the character an Elemental Surge and Endless Woes style effect for that element? Venturing into a place of strong elemental power and proving you mastery by defeating a guardian would be nice.

[Micbran]

I like it, but I like Suslik's idea more. Thing is, his is harder to implement. More ideas.

[Suslik]

How about having a quest for each damage element which would give the character an Elemental Surge and Endless Woes style effect for that element? Venturing into a place of strong elemental power and proving you mastery by defeating a guardian would be nice.

No. Any numerical buff that's the same for every class just does not cut it. Point of subclass is to further unique-ify each class, not make them all stronger in the same way but for different damage elements.

Instead of trying to come up with something cheap and applying it for all classes at once I really think it's best to implement such feature for one class at a time, one after another. Maybe just 1-2 classes for starters but with truly unique bonuses and quests like the necromancers have. I really think in this case one well-made awakening is way better than yet another buff quest for all classes.

[HousePet]

Err it was for Archmage.

[Radon26]

- summoners may be allowed to switch to manual summon controlling without taking a turn.

that one wouldn't work, because of how turns work.
whenever it is not "your" turn, everything else is just fast forwarded.
so what's going to happen if that suggestion came to be...
you take over a summon, but since its not his turn, things have to move.
but wait, that action took no time, so its still the summoners turn.
as the summoner is under control of the AI, it will make him take an action.
an action that could result in his death, BECAUSE AI!!!

what i suggest instead, is ability to make a "permanent" summon.
so, you have a sustained ability, and an active aiblity.
sustained ability cost nothing on its own.
the active ability would cost like 10 equi (or maybe 0), and it would allow you to mark a summon.
while sustained ability is sustained, all marked summons, instead of ticking down will accumulate 1 equi/turn each.
and you have personal bodyguards.

[HousePet]

I'm sure we can end the players turn and grant an immediate turn to the controlled creature.

[Radon26]

thats going to be either a miningless change as the talent has a cooldown,
or super abusable op as the creature could have effectively have twice as many moves as it otherwise would have.

if the talent has no cooldown, and the creature is JUST slightly faster than you, then it can have its turn 0.0001 of a turn before you, and then immidiately you take over and make another move, then comeback to yourself that 0.0001 turn before summoners turn, and do it again.

and if there is a cooldown, then what's actually even the point of that skill? if you want to scout, just summon it around the corner.

[Suslik]

@Radon26

I think I wasnt clear enough about the summoner. Point is instead of giving you ability to assume control over a summon(as it is now), we can give player automatic control over any summon or himself whenever they have a turn. This effect might be temporary. Basically it'll let you decide what your summons do instead of AI without giving anyone actual extra turns to act.

Since controlling every move of every summoned creature may not be always necessary and it makes your party significantly more powerful(because player acts way more effectively than AI) the ability to switch automatic control should have some kind of cooldown.

And anyway, that's far from point of this thread. This automatic summon controlling is just the first thing that came to my head when I was thinking about summoner unique ability.

[HousePet]

Radon26, we can calculate exactly how the turn timers are working, so we can make it work exactly right.
I find you lack of faith... Disturbing.

[Micbran]

Radon26, I would probably trust HousePet's judgement more than yours about how programming works and game mechanics.

[Radon26]

everyone can make a mistake, no one is beyond judgement, especially on the internet.

aside from HP saying that that's not what he meant, did anything i said is outright wrong?

[HousePet]

Well arguing that the mechanics can't be done is a bit outside the scope of this thread and your expertise.

[Radon26]

i am not saying its impossible to do, just that if it was done "that way" then "this" would be the result of it.
i am not saying that there is no way around it, i am saying what i say to be sure that you do look for the way around.

sure he knows "more" than i do, but i dont believe he knows EVERYTHING. as i said, everyone can make a mistake.
by the opposite, even someone who knows nothing can occasionally have a fair point.

but no, if you know more, than apparently your word is a word of god and everyone else has no right to object...