Saving CON! And undead while we're at it!

[Dracos]

I like the con and undead ideas in the first post. I think it'd be worth trying them out, and seeing where it lays from there.

[Death From Above]

Honestly my biggest problem with Con or any other stat is that gear counts towards letting you cheat to get skills and prodigies.

"Random Number God gave me good items so I am item switching to get a prodigy I am nowhere near/5 in thick skin" or "I am abusing the item vault to pass around gear to cheat my way into skills/prodigies" is at most one half step above save scumming and should be nuked with furious abandon.

[Zonk]

Honestly my biggest problem with Con or any other stat is that gear counts towards letting you cheat to get skills and prodigies.

"Random Number God gave me good items so I am item switching to get a prodigy I am nowhere near/5 in thick skin" or "I am abusing the item vault to pass around gear to cheat my way into skills/prodigies" is at most one half step above save scumming and should be nuked with furious abandon.

I think this has been discussed in the past - personally I mostly agree with you, though I would add that instead of making talents require BASE stats, you could also make talents stop working if you no longer satisfy the requirements - that also makes sense to me.
(You learn to do something with the help of +stat equipment, but you need to keep the equipment around to do that, or raise your actual stats)

[Atarlost]

Honestly my biggest problem with Con or any other stat is that gear counts towards letting you cheat to get skills and prodigies.

"Random Number God gave me good items so I am item switching to get a prodigy I am nowhere near/5 in thick skin" or "I am abusing the item vault to pass around gear to cheat my way into skills/prodigies" is at most one half step above save scumming and should be nuked with furious abandon.

It's not luck and it's certainly not the vault. It's planning ahead and not automatically transmogrifying everything. Zigurites may run into problems because they face a harder gear restriction than magic users, but it's expected that all characters can get thick skin by game's end and a prodigy from any stat for their second slot for a reason.

[grobblewobble]

It's not luck and it's certainly not the vault. It's planning ahead and not automatically transmogrifying everything. Zigurites may run into problems because they face a harder gear restriction than magic users, but it's expected that all characters can get thick skin by game's end and a prodigy from any stat for their second slot for a reason.

For undead it might also be a little bit more work than for other characters, because they don't get heroism. Heroism is usually a temporary boost of 10-20 to all my stats (on normal difficulty; on higher difficulties i don't know). With a little bit of shopping and attention before transmogrification, this makes meeting any prodigy stat requirement really easy by the time you get to the east. For an undead (without heroism) it can sometimes be a little more work (but still not so much that you in fact need to put points into the stat).

[Mordy]

Heroism only boosts the 3 highest stats though, those that need the less help to reach 50 for prodigy unlocks.

[Zonk]

Are people really implying stat raising for purposes of talent+equipment requirements is a good feature that should be kept rather than changed in some way?

(I think it would make sense if you could learn talents and use equipment as of now..but once you lose the prerequisites, you cannot use the talent or equipment. It does not make a lot of sense otherwise and I think 'making sense' is an important thing. I am not talking about 'realism', before anyone says this is a fantasy game anyway, I am talking consistency)

[kvaak]

Heroism only boosts the 3 highest stats though, those that need the less help to reach 50 for prodigy unlocks.

Conveniently most chars focus on two stats (almost) exclusively until they hit 60 so you can just boost whatever you need to your 3rd highest stat and then pop hero. If you need 50 for your second prodigy or something you should have a metric ton of stat-boosting equipment already stashed. Heck, I managed to equip the awakened staff of absorption on my oozemancer and hero was of no use there, not to mention most +magic items are arcane.

Are people really implying stat raising for purposes of talent+equipment requirements is a good feature that should be kept rather than changed in some way?

(I think it would make sense if you could learn talents and use equipment as of now..but once you lose the prerequisites, you cannot use the talent or equipment. It does not make a lot of sense otherwise and I think 'making sense' is an important thing. I am not talking about 'realism', before anyone says this is a fantasy game anyway, I am talking consistency)

This baffles me as well. I think it's a ridiculous mechanic as it makes stat requirements largely meaningless past early game. Not to mention it encourages hoarding making inventory/equipment management a nightmare and the fact ToME's UI is... suboptimal doesn't help. (see: not being able to drop your pink tagged "str4" because it's tagged. Or change your "strcon2" inscription to "str2" because you found a cloak with more con, gotta remove the old tag first because reasons). It's also extremely spoilery, thick skin is extremely desirable whereas con is most of the time the exact opposite. How does that make sense? This mechanic is terrible for so many reasons.

IMHO any equipment and talents you don't meet the requirements for just should be disabled (and cannot be unlearned if they have permanent effects, eg stone alchemy). If there's a need for rebalancing, and I certainly hope not because that'd mean the game is balanced around what is a borderline bug, just go from there. Debuffs probably shouldn't count towards this, getting encumbered by blood-spraying corruptors is bad enough already.

As far as con is concerned just give it dex' crit reduction or share it between the two. Flat 100 hp is a flat 100hp at xl1 and xl50 and you can easily get that much from items even at the start of the game) 10% crit reduction can nullify both a 100 and a 1000 damage crit. How often do you see crit reduction on equipment?

[Zonk]

Yeah, we are in agreement. OF course after this is fixed (because I consider it to be a bug of sorts) it would be a good thing to rebalance(=lower) talent and equipment prerequisites.

In many cases, talents and equipment require the same stat that makes them more or less powerful, so if you have a low stat and use them you are 'punished' anyway..

[Atarlost]

Are people really implying stat raising for purposes of talent+equipment requirements is a good feature that should be kept rather than changed in some way?

(I think it would make sense if you could learn talents and use equipment as of now..but once you lose the prerequisites, you cannot use the talent or equipment. It does not make a lot of sense otherwise and I think 'making sense' is an important thing. I am not talking about 'realism', before anyone says this is a fantasy game anyway, I am talking consistency)

Using temporary stat levels for prerequisites has been in the game so long everything is balanced around it. Taking it out without also almost entirely eliminating stat prerequisites would completely ruin a lot of builds.

[HousePet]

Nothing wrong with rebalancing the whole game. It means that there are new good builds to find!
This isn't an MMO where you are stuck with your build until you grind up another character.

Making effects disable if you no longer have the requirements is a newbie trap.
In other games, discovering I can't swap an item without losing the ability to equip some of my other equipment is annoying. Making it apply to talents as well would be horrible.

[edge2054]

Using temporary stat levels for prerequisites has been in the game so long everything is balanced around it. Taking it out without also almost entirely eliminating stat prerequisites would completely ruin a lot of builds.

I don't think it really is though. Maybe some things are in fact balanced around it but for the most part I don't think when Darkgod set down and implemented prodigies he had the notion that people would stat boost up to those values to pick whatever they want.

Likewise the base talent requirements worked quite well in early betas and those values have never changed even though artifact and egos have seen a metric ton of power creep.

I'm sure there's some odd artifacts with ridiculous stat requirements but a grep in the object files should be able to track those down without much issue. The other outstanding issue I see is with MAD classes that have stat boosting talents such as Brawlers.

As a player that has won without cheesing stat requirements I think the biggest issue is the sense of entitlement. In other words, it's in the game and people are used to it and flat out removing it would have a negative psychological impact on the player base.

But it's a mechanic that rewards tedium in a game that is both long and actively discourages rewarding tedious behavior (i.e. grinding/potion hoarding). Personally I'd love to see everything set to require base stats with stat boosting talents adjusted appropriately (skeletons and ghouls already do this, not sure on brawlers) or have stat bonuses phased off of gear completely. In either case there would be some stuff that would require balancing but it's not this black hole its being made out to be.

[Effigy]

The problem with enforcing the stat requirements is that it restricts build options. Builds that work now with item swaps wouldn't be possible after this change. I don't think we would gain much in exchange for the loss of build diversity.

It's important to keep in mind that bugs can be good or bad. The fact that something wasn't intended by the developer doesn't automatically make it bad. The added tedium of hoarding items may be bad, but it's also optional, and frankly I don't even find it that tedious. I'd rather just get rid of the stat requirements in general, but I know many people would object to that.

[Planetus]

Ok, to get back to the original topic a bit (sorry if I'm derailing the 'let's scrap stat requirements' conversation), CON has needed a buff, or maybe just a total rework, for a while. At the moment, the HP it gives you is laughable, compared to the HP you can get from common equipment at most any similar moment. Yes, HP is always good, but there are better (and cheaper) sources of it.

Things to consider that are thematic for Con:

• More HP! Seriously, an infusion can give you 1000, and gear can easily give you several hundred. Comparatively, stat investment is the most expensive with the least return. 60 Con should give at least something in the range of 800 more HP, maybe even 1000 or more, not 400.
  Make more talents scale with Con (unless of course we scrap stat requirements). Every other stat has multiple class and generic trees that require them, so that every stat has a multitude of classes/builds that require them. Con has only a tiny smattering of scattered talents.
  Flat damage resistance (almost certainly low)
  Reduce the portion of your max HP that can be dealt in damage in one hit/one turn
  Grant status resists (especially poison, disease, bleeding, maybe confusion, stun, daze)
  Negative life for undead makes sense to me

Some considerations for undead:
Undead are two different races (for now, maybe more later), and should be treated as such. Skeletons may not be a top-tier race, but they're not shabby. Ghouls, on the other hand, are almost a challenge race. One obviously needs a lot more buffing than the other. And liches... are already considered in about 8 other threads on rebalancing necros. Let's leave liches as part of the class that they're a part of.

Skeletons don't really need much. Making their racial talents immune to silence is interesting, or giving them a passive silence resist. I mean, is silence actually about not being able to speak? The grappling talents and talents like throat-shot seem to suggest so, but then we can cast spells at 0 air while drowning or suffocating in sand, and many instant spells are still affected by it. Plus, how does someone else yelling prevent you from incanting a spell? Maybe make a physical (silence) version that skeleton's are immune to (no throat), and a magical (spell disruption) version that they aren't immune to. While we're at it, maybe make arcane disrupting gear and effects do constant (minimal) damage to them as it disrupts the energies that sustain them, but arcane gear may grant a passive bonus of some kind? Skeleton's become less useful in harder modes as their damage shield and heal become less useful. A free resurrect is only useful if you can survive or escape the situation once resurrected, which is no guarantee. Stats for generic points are nice (one of the nicest features of undead), and quicker removal of negative effects isn't bad, though less useful later in the game. The racial immunities are nice, but not great. No breathe is really a safety/ease issue and poison, bleed, and fear immunity are meh.

Ghouls, meanwhile, need a lot more work. Their racials are a lot worse. Leap is only useful for meleers, and risky even then, retch is meh, gnaw currently bites (take the pun or leave it), and even if stats for generics is good, when one of the stats is Con (which is currently bad), it's not so great. The ability to cut off damage over a % of your max HP is nice, though it doesn't work with the high con and con bonus, which give more HP, or the Str bonus, which preferences you toward melee characters who need more HP, or the lack of heroism infusions (negative HP). Plus, it's only effective against single-source damage. Add in a -20% speed penalty AND a need to breathe, and it just doesn't work. And the immunities are even worse: poison resistance instead of immunity, bleed and fear immunity are still meh, and while stun resistance is good, most anyone can get 100% resistance by mid-late game if they really want it.

So, improvements:

• Give ghouls an inherent (probably scaling) resistance. Almost certainly blight. A ghoul should be able to reach 100% blight resistance if they focus on blight resist gear, and I mean that in a real sense, so blight resistance cap as well. Maybe 5% cap and 2% resist for every point in a racial talent? That would cap you at 100% resistance cap and a free 10% resist. If you do this, you should probably give skeletons a resist as well. Maybe half that in each of fire and cold (no oily flesh or fat to burn and frozen bones aren't very different from non-frozen bones).
  
  Make gnaw an auto-proc change on melee attacks, or auto-proc on Leap, and let it heal and at least reduce the speed penalty. Thematically, it should be a core mechanic of the race. Practically at present, it's pretty much ignored.
  
  Give Retch a chance to cause some status effects as well, due to the stench, the disgust factor, and the fearful realization that, while your flesh is melting, this undead horror is rebuilding itself. Of course, undead would be immune to the status effects. Even more fun, maybe give it a chance to cause all living creatures in it's effect to retch themselves (maybe a lesser version of it) each turn they're in the effect?
  
  Maybe replace Ghoulish Leap with a speed inversion talent for a few turns. At start, it gives you enough speed to be at +20% without other bonuses, for 3 turns. At the end, it should give you +pretty high speed (60-100%?) for something like 5 turns. Would that be OP?

[Atarlost]

I'm sure there's some odd artifacts with ridiculous stat requirements but a grep in the object files should be able to track those down without much issue. The other outstanding issue I see is with MAD classes that have stat boosting talents such as Brawlers.

It's not artifacts that are the problem.

Voratun Plate Mail: 60 strength. Can show up from floor chests as early as the maze and usually shows up in the Vor armory. Even if that's your primary stat it's a problem if that requires base stat. Vorutun Longsword: 48 strength. Vorutun Dagger: 48 dex. You don't think that's just a bit impractical for two weapon arcane blades and even marauders? Even leather armor gets up to 20 strength and is usually intended for classes like rogue that have pretty much no use for the stat.

A character pursuing an even three way stat distribution won't even be able to qualify for prodigies at level 30 without items or a heroism infusion.