Bulwarks have problems. Let's fix them!

[grayswandir]

I like the idea of a rush in that style. I'd keep it simpler though:
Activate to get +400% move speed for 2 turns.
Your next melee strike consumes the buff, does extra damage and dazes the target.
If you fail to make a melee attack before it wears off, you get a move speed and stamina drain debuff for ~8 turns.

[Zonk]

I like the idea of a rush in that style. I'd keep it simpler though:
Activate to get +400% move speed for 2 turns.
Your next melee strike consumes the buff, does extra damage and dazes the target.
If you fail to make a melee attack before it wears off, you get a move speed and stamina drain debuff for ~8 turns.

Oh, that's simpler and I sorta like the idea of just giving move speed directly, and I can even justify the debuff (all that moving without stopping because of attacking means you are offbalanced/demotivated).
I do think that the idea of gathering momentum as you move in a (roughly)straight line is good and might be worth considering, though. But I understand the 'complicated for new players' issue, is.

Problem is, people could still use it to escape - but then I did admit that's an issue with my idea. Granted, you can use it NOW to escape by targetting a hypothetical very weak NPC that's on the opposite side of the one you are currently fighting.

[Calodine]

Alrighty. Problems.

I ain't touching rush - way too many classes use that tree, and it's really not in a bad spot. I like gray's idea, but it doesn't have to replace the current one. Mainly I don't wanna mess with other classes.

RE Grand Slam being too good - Honestly, the numbers were my guess. As is I'd probably lower the range down to 3 and drop the silence duration a bit. I think the AoE is good, even if it isn't doing the job right now - They need SOME way to handle crowds, and I don't just want to stack defence on defence, because then you run into randbosses being completely unkillable, or being nigh immortal yourself and still having to bump forever to actually kill stuff.

Delmuir - People have already argued your idea, some I'm just gonna go with your disagreement on concept for the heavy armour dudes having mobility.

Mobility is really, really important - See the prevalence of movement infusions on everything, psychoport torques, teleport runes, etc, etc. This is a game where mobility is functionally nonoptional. Classes that don't have a ton of it have to dedicate equipment/infusion slots to it, which in turn makes you much squishier. Bulwark has rush > step up. That's it - the only movement is 'run at a guy' and 'run fast after you murder a guy'. And neither of these allow for getting PAST people, if surrounded/blocked off. This is also a problem if you get trash blocking you from wyrmics/corruptors/etcetc blowing a hole in your face. You're completely incapable of getting to them without spending turns slowly killing off the trash in front.

Think about that. The heavily armoured dude with the big shield is incapable of busting through. This was my solution - big heavy armor dude jumps a short distance and slams his shield into the ground so hard it causes a shockwave that leaves people speechless. I even added the drop sound effect to make it have a bigger impact, since nobody ever hears that anyway. This is why the range is (Should be) so short. You're not being MOBILE, you're dropping on a guy like the goddamn hammer of Thor.


...Maybe silence doesn't work out. Maybe we go back to knocking people on their asses (pin). Maybe it gets scrapped entirely! I dunno. But saying that, conceptually, they should be immobile doesn't fit the class, in my opinion. More importantly, it leaves them either weak, or awful to play against.

[Atarlost]

Bulwark has rush > step up. That's it - the only movement is 'run at a guy' and 'run fast after you murder a guy'. And neither of these allow for getting PAST people, if surrounded/blocked off.

I don't think most melee have much way of getting past people that they can't step around. ABs and TWs and Mindslayers do. Brawlers do if they build combo points first. Sun Paladins have a strike at range talent, but that only allows one round of attacks. I think Rogues, Marauders, Barbarians, Reavers, and Cursed are in about the same situation as the current Bulwark and Wyrmics are only better off if they're built as a mindcaster rather than for melee.

You're not describing a part of the melee mobility toolkit that bulwarks are missing. A movement infusion substitute that can be command activated might put Bulwarks closer to average, but even as they are they're not far behind.

[Calodine]

Rogues get nimble movements/tumble/vault. Cursed get reckless charge, blindside, and rampage. 'Zerkers get fearless cleave and an asston of AoE. Reavers have ranged attacks and a bunch of AoE. Marauders are just berserkers with GWF and dual weapons.

It's the combination of only rush, no AoE to reliably clear a path to be able to rush at a guy, and no ranged option. The last one doesn't fit, the second is a class weakness on the whole, so I went with the first.

[Razakai]

I've totally burnt out on ToME coding and ToME in general to a lesser degree, so I'm very pleased to see a couple of my ideas see the light of day, as I doubt I'd ever get around to coding it myself.

[brown recluse]

You could give them a short range charge (3-4 spaces max) that shoves enemies away and gives a one turn damage bonus. Give it a middling to low cooldown, and I think that would help them with casters, summoners, and high threat enemies in packs without being overcomplicated or not thematic.

[edge2054]

Alrighty. Problems.

I ain't touching rush - way too many classes use that tree, and it's really not in a bad spot. I like gray's idea, but it doesn't have to replace the current one. Mainly I don't wanna mess with other classes.

First of all +1. Second of all, while there's nothing wrong with gray's idea there's a certain flow to Rush style talents that Movement infusion style talents just don't have. Two key presses to close vs. generally a lot more. There's nothing wrong with including both but I'm not a fan of changing Rush.

Okay so Mobility. Mobility is important for two reasons, closing in and escaping. Look at Archers. Archers have problems and their biggest problem is when they're boxed in they're screwed.

I think a short range leap + ground slam would be great for Bulwarks. Ghoulish Leap on Steroids! But keep the range short. Like five max (maybe don't scale the range). Scale the AoE radius and damage (yes I think it should do damage).

I'd avoid silence, at least on a base ability because it's really not something we want a lot of in the game, for the same reason we don't want a lot of disarms. Put it on Shattering Shout if you want. Daze is still strong. It pins enemies effectively letting you close in and halves all their powers, making your saves much better as well as reducing the damage you take.

So this makes Ground Slam both a viable escape (boxed in? Ground Slam out and pop your movement infusion) as well as a viable close in talent (Ground Slam forward, hit everyone in a radius 3 AoE with some damage + daze, Rush or just walk up to your target).

[comrade raoul]

This got mentioned earlier, and is orthogonal to the interesting work people are doing on the addon, but:

IMO the simplest and best fix for the bulwark is to improve the Shield Defense tree. Probably, (1) build Spectral Shield and Eternal Guard into it, and perhaps (2) buff Last Stand to reduce the magnitude of incoming damage.

On its own, (1) would make Bulwarks perfectly capable in Normal while preserving their straightforward playstyle and, therefore, their suitability for new players. In addition, it would free up their prodigy choices.

As for (2), Last Stand needs a buff. A natural one is for it to reduce the total or maximum damage any attack can cause, e.g. perhaps to n% of the player's max life or something. Something like this may be necessary to make Bulwarks capable in higher difficulty levels, when blocking becomes progressively worse as more marginal damage gets through. (In any case, IIRC you need to spend a turn deactivating Last Stand in order to move, which renders it basically unusable. Even apart from any other changes, why not simply change it so that it deactivates automatically (and instantly) IF you move?)

[elboyo]

If we're looking to provide a movement skill that allows placement and sticks in the theme of a heavy bruiser, why not try something like this?

Collision
Range: 3 - 6 (increases with points)
Description: Move to the target point, pushing any creatures in your path out of the way. Any opponent you push is dazed for X rounds; targets which are pushed into a wall or another creature also take X% of your shield's block value as damage. Failing to knock back a target ends your movement. At talent level 5 this skill can dig 1 tile.


The dig bit might be pushing it, but this gives a minor damage option, a semi-reliable movement and a very short duration daze for your to follow up on.

Don't you think it would be just too much fun to use clairvoyance to scout and then come crashing through a wall to gain the advantage?

[grayswandir]

I like that better than the jump.

[edge2054]

Crashing through walls does sound fun

I think the Ground Slam also sounds fun though. Is there room for both? Presumably collision wouldn't work to well as an escape if it was resistable (saves/knockback immunity).

[elboyo]

Maybe a flat bonus to physical power for the push per point?

I think that it would be okay if resistance to knockbacks could counter it and prevent escape in specific directions. Would it be possible for the counterstrike talent to lower knockback resistance on success blocks?

[grayswandir]

With the new targeting stuff I could probably set it up so that the target changes yellow or whatever if you're going through something with knockback resist.
Completely ignoring saves for the charge is fine in my opinion.
Alternatively, always let you move through the space regardless of knockback if they're not large or bigger.

Edit: Or we could just let the player know which targets have passed the check while they're still targeting the skill. It's a bit weird but it could work.

[edge2054]

Outside of special casing knockback somehow (which I'm not against, I think moving through targets based on size is a neat idea too) it just doesn't sound like a very reliable escape talent unless you 5/5 it for the dig. Even then you need to be near a single tile wall to bust through if you're trying to run.

What's wrong with both? The Ground Slam too over the top for a guy in heavy armor?