Saving CON! And undead while we're at it!

[Ivels]

I think undead could use a buff, the lack of infusions is a hefty penalty and undead resistances don't quite make up for them. Neither bleeding, nor poison, nor fear are major concerns, so you don't get a very good deal when trading infusions and access to Zigur for protection from those statuses. Ghouls do get an actually useful resistance, but they're also gimped by -20% global speed penalty, - and it's a lot easier to get 50% more stun resistance than it is to find 20% more global speed.

Skeletons could use a twist that would make them stand out a bit, because their abilities aren't particularly interesting. Sure, bone armor and reconstruction are useful, but towards the end of the game they become just another shield and just another heal, and not very strong either as they don't benefit from crit multipliers. Their first skill in particular could offer something beside a modest bonus to STR and DEX, to make it more attractive for all classes. Some ideas:
- scaling crit shrug off chance (because skeletons lack vital organs and you're reinforcing your skeletal body as the talent level grows)
- an extra inscription slot at level 5, for a total possible maximum of 6 (because skeletons are inherently magical and have more surface area for carving stuff into)
- ability to imbue your body with a gem (because sticking a diamond in one of your eyesockets is fashionable)

For ghouls, I think their final ability is extremely useless for nearly everyone apart from reavers. It requires you to be at close range, it doesn't do a whole lot it terms of damage, the stat reduction for NPCs isn't particularly debilitating and sinking 5 whole points just for a chance of raising a summon? Meh. I think it should be additionally buffed by:
a) inverting the racial speed penalty (+20% global instead of -20%) for X turns as the savory meaty chunk leaves you craving for more
b) also healing you for X% of the damage done
c) I feel like there's some room for interplay between Ghoulish Leap and Gnaw. Perhaps Gnaw could lower the cooldown on Leap. Perhaps once you level the Leap to a certain point, it would proc an automatic Gnaw if used on a target. May be killing the target afflicted with Rot could also refresh the cooldown on Retch?

This would actually make it a decent investment of points.

While we're on the subject of CON, I propose the life bonus on corrupted shell be replaced with a comparable bonus to CON. We already have a prodigy that grants 40 strength and some other nice things, so that's not too far fetched. That way the prodigy would grant a bonus that can actually improve certain talents.

[Zonk]

I know it might seem like a 'throwback' to earliar band/roguelike games (which is not necessarily bad, of course), but would it be bad if undead started with actual DAMAGE resistances?

Blight, especially. Something like 10%. Applied both as actual resistance and as a resistance cap bonus.
Cold resistance also makes sense.
Again - I think it should also apply to NPCs (hence my earlier comments about the die_at thing). I think 'fairness' and making NPC use similar mechanics to PCs is an important part of the game.
And yes, I understand just giving damage resists is not very exciting or fun but it's both useful and thematic. Two out of three (useful/thematic/exciting) isn't bad in my opinion

EDIT I also still think that making the ghoul penalty to speed apply only to movement might be nice. That's a major buff, though.

[grobblewobble]

From the perspective of a casual player who sticks to normal / roguelike, imho both Con and Skeleton are already good.

I find myself boosting Con on nearly every character, even if it gets lower priority than the primary stat. Hitpoints are always good, no matter what you play.

Ghoul is really bad, though. The speed penalty is very punishing, because it means that any sort of bad stuff that can happen will now occasionally happen twice in a row.

I know that ghouls have been buffed already, but the buff is only protecting you against raw damage (not debuffs) and only against damage spikes from single sources. If you're being hit by multiple damage sources, the recent ghoul buff will do nothing to help you.

So all in all, ghouls have a very bad drawback in their speed penalty, on top of the bad drawback of infusion denial. They don't have anything great to make up for those two massive setbacks. For example skeletons have several things going for them (huge damage shield, big healing, one free resurrection) that make them great on normal difficulty. Ghouls do not have anything going for them that's as good as the skeleton, on top of having a second massive drawback.

So imo, please buff ghouls.

[Zonk]

Also, why not just make ghouls NOT need to breathe, or give them a large +max air bonus?

It's pretty intuitive. I know currently the justification is that they still need SOME air but...that'd be another useful bonus and it's a standard undead power.

So basically my suggestion is:

1)Give ghouls and skeleton some basic damage resists and resists cap from the start, not as talents.
Maybe +10 cold & blight resist and resist cap.
2)Make ghouls not need to breath, or have something like max air 200 or 300, so they DO still need some air to prevent their tissues from rotting completely, but can resist suffocation more than most living beings.
3)CONSIDER either making the -20% ghoul speed penalty only apply to movement, or lower it to -10%.

(I can see how doing all 3 might be too much of a buff though)

[HousePet]

I agree with removing the need to breath from Ghouls.

Undead races having the highest life ratings in the game hasn't been mentioned yet.
In exchange for loosing the ability to use infusions they get poison, bleed and fear immunity, high life rating and increased mastery on their racial talents. Skellies also don't have the breathe.

Undead have been buffed recently, and you can't keep using the no infusions as a reason to buff them. (Gnaw is crap though, make it a passive that procs on melee hits.)

[Delmuir]

I know it might seem like a 'throwback' to earliar band/roguelike games (which is not necessarily bad, of course), but would it be bad if undead started with actual DAMAGE resistances?

Blight, especially. Something like 10%. Applied both as actual resistance and as a resistance cap bonus.
Cold resistance also makes sense.

Ha ha, I tried to make the case for this once and was rebuffed. I definitively support it though.

What I figured was that Ghouls should get a resistance to blight and physical damage whereas the Skeletons should get cold and blight. Ghouls should have a resistance penalty to cold (as that makes sense… freezing rotting flesh after all) whereas Skeletons would get a small penalty to fire resistance.

I figure that the best want to handle it is this:

Ghouls +15% blight and physical resistance and a +10% resistance cap on blight but a -10% cold damage and resistance cap.

Skeletons +15% blight and cold resistance with a +10% cold resistance cap but a -10% fire resistance and resistance cap.

I thought it made logical and thematic sense. More so, the physical resistance bonus on ghouls would go a long way to making up for that global speed penalty.

I still like the heal mod bonus for constitution and even the negative life… I just think the negative life should be strongly considered given the interaction with some skills.

As for the Ghoul's gnaw skill… the Ghoul is supposed to be sturdy, a tank. Why not simply raise their resistance caps as a final skill? Maybe 2% per talent point invested…

Edit: Actually, Housepet's solution is much better than mine. We should do that. That's a great idea.

[supermini]

In exchange for loosing the ability to use infusions they get poison, bleed and fear immunity, high life rating and increased mastery on their racial talents. Skellies also don't have the breathe.

Poison immunity is relevant in the early game. Non undead use healing infusions instead. They are better than regen (unless you have fungus) anyway.

Fear immunity is relevant only in very specific circumstances - nightmare horrors and (sometimes) solipsist rares. It's a good immunity to have as it allows you to resist inner demons, but not much beyond that.

Bleed immunity is mostly irrelevant.

Meanwhile, you are vulnerable to silence shutting down all your inscriptions, unless you luck into the wintertide phial.

Movement infusions can double as closer and escapes, and they give you stun and pin immunity for several turns.
Heroism infusions let you get up to 1000 extra hp in a fight. Life rating indeed.

Waterbreathing is irrelevant. It's a flavor thing, no more, no less.

Undead have been buffed recently, and you can't keep using the no infusions as a reason to buff them. (Gnaw is crap though, make it a passive that procs on melee hits.)

I can because I know what difference they make in practice. This buff isn't going to make undead (or CON) that much better, but it's a step in the right direction. I'm not sure why you're being a contrarian about this, undead have sucked for a long time, and this buff more adds an interesting quirk than it causes a major power shift.

[Zonk]

What I figured was that Ghouls should get a resistance to blight and physical damage whereas the Skeletons should get cold and blight. Ghouls should have a resistance penalty to cold (as that makes sense… freezing rotting flesh after all) whereas Skeletons would get a small penalty to fire resistance.

I figure that the best want to handle it is this:

Ghouls +15% blight and physical resistance and a +10% resistance cap on blight but a -10% cold damage and resistance cap.

Skeletons +15% blight and cold resistance with a +10% cold resistance cap but a -10% fire resistance and resistance cap.

I thought it made logical and thematic sense.

While I can see physical resist also being good (though +15% might be too much), I think cold vulnerability for ghouls and fire vulnerability for undead does not make sense at all.

Think about it - undead as a rule resist cold, and WHY would a zombie-like ghoul be more vulnerable to cold than a regular human? No reason to assume 'freezing rotten flesh' does worse than 'freezing fresh flesh'.

Also, I am pretty sure bones are MORE resistant to fire than the flesh around them, or cremating corpses would be much easier). It would make more sense for skeletons to resist (slightly)fire than to be vulnerable to it really.

[HousePet]

Well if I was being contrarian, I wouldn't need a reason, as that is what contrarian means.

I just think that undead races have been suitably compensated for the loss of infusions (maybe infusions are too powerful?), and I don't see any need to make them much easier to play.
They already get more life than other races, and the suggestion of making Con increases grant negative life seems unwarranted and potentially confusing.

[Delmuir]

While I can see physical resist also being good (though +15% might be too much), I think cold vulnerability for ghouls and fire vulnerability for undead does not make sense at all.

Think about it - undead as a rule resist cold, and WHY would a zombie-like ghoul be more vulnerable to cold than a regular human? No reason to assume 'freezing rotten flesh' does worse than 'freezing fresh flesh'.

Also, I am pretty sure bones are MORE resistant to fire than the flesh around them, or cremating corpses would be much easier). It would make more sense for skeletons to resist (slightly)fire than to be vulnerable to it really.

The point about cold resist is based on hard science… freezing does damage much the same way that fire does, and undead lack the ability to generate heat and are thus, more susceptible. Skeletons are just bones though whereas ghouls are flesh, which means water, which means highly susceptible to cold damage.

Bones… I just assumed they'd be dry. In reality, skeletons would be more susceptible to physical damage but who'd want to make them more susceptible to the most common damage type?

Honestly, I don't really care what is done but if one is concerned with the hard science of it, just do a search for zombies and cold.

[Zonk]

The problem with cold is mostly that it kills off tissues isn't it?...and ghoul tissues are already mostly dead. Sure, zombies would 'freeze' faster because they don't generate body heat, but would that really damage them significantly when they have little or no metabolim?

As for bone, sure, it's dry. So are stone and metal - which are generally not more flammable than flesh.

However this might be derailing and HousePet already brought up some arguments that buffs might not be needed anyway.

[supermini]

I just think that undead races have been suitably compensated for the loss of infusions

What exactly is the basis of your argument for this? I've layed out my reasoning in the previous post.

[HousePet]

I think that the variety of immunities, more powerful racials and extra life covers the difference in power between infusions and runes.

[supermini]

I think that the variety of immunities, more powerful racials and extra life covers the difference in power between infusions and runes.

I would strongly disagree with this.

Ghouls aren't even close. Even if you turned their global speed penalty to just movement speed they would still be kinda bad.
Liches are just awful and beyond the coolness factor they have very little going for them. You invest 5 class points (which are already very scarce) to be worse.

Skeletons end up just about compensating on normal, but only for specific classes, where either mobility isn't an issue, or where they can leverage the bone armor with aegis for extremely strong pre-shielding (Due to barrier being able to crit, magical classes can get better pre-shielding late game by going for Barrier in the Celestial/Light tree, thanks to crit multiplier, but bone armor is an alternative). They have 12 life rating, which is the same as halflings and dwarves and only 1 more than thalore. They also have 40% xp penalty, which is a significant cost on lower difficulties. Their immunities, while neat, are largely situational.

[HousePet]

Hmm, I wasn't considering Liches.