Melinda and Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

[Mankeli]

As to hopeless/useless characters, the most hopeless and useless ones are escortees, and they're of a randomised gender

This is a good point too.

[Burb Lulls]

Here's an idea for Melinda. Let's say that, after Melinda's been saved and has moved into the Sher'tul fortress, the fortress' butler says that the fortress has old training facilities that were originally used for training Sher'tul warriors, and that Melinda has shown interest in learning how to fight. So, you do some sidequest stuff (charge the fortress enough, clear a farportal dungeon so the training facility has 'combat data' to use, etc.) and once that's complete, Melinda becomes a capable fighter (possibly the class as you?) and can accompany you into farportals as backup?

[edge2054]

EDIT: The other option, which a lot of modern games with NPC romance subplots do, is to have multiple NPCs of different genders/orientations that you can date. That's a fine option, but it requires creating a new quest line rather than just tweaking what's already in the game.

This sounds good to me.

[grobblewobble]

Speaking on their own behalf. Dare you take the power to shut them up?

No, I don't have such power and I'm glad I don't, because I would not want it. Everyone has the right to express their opinion. All I'm saying is that it's pointless to start such a debate here, because in the case of a computer game that's as niche as ToME, it really is.

Why exactly is convincing people on the street better than convincing people on this particular forum, though?

Because you might have an audience of more than 5 people there.

You sound unusually threatened...

I'm just a little salty because I have never had a chance to see the orcish breeding pits and they sounded awesome.

[0player]

I'm just a little salty because I have never had a chance to see the orcish breeding pits and they sounded awesome.

There's an addon for all us old-timers. The zone's still in the game, after all, the entrance is jsut obscured.

It's not about making a statement, it's about being a little more comfortable with the game you love. Don't compare this to orcish pits incident.
There's no death threats or blackmail involved.

[Mankeli]

Here's an idea for Melinda. Let's say that, after Melinda's been saved and has moved into the Sher'tul fortress, the fortress' butler says that the fortress has old training facilities that were originally used for training Sher'tul warriors, and that Melinda has shown interest in learning how to fight. So, you do some sidequest stuff (charge the fortress enough, clear a farportal dungeon so the training facility has 'combat data' to use, etc.) and once that's complete, Melinda becomes a capable fighter (possibly the class as you?) and can accompany you into farportals as backup?

The AI doesn't really support having permanent allies because they tend to die really quickly. So she probably would just die quickly. And if you make her powerful enough to be able to tank things then there would be balance concerns.

There's no death threats or blackmail involved.

There were death threats too, seriously, WTF?

[Effigy]

Orcish vulvas are serious business.

[0player]

There were death threats too, seriously, WTF?

Don't take my word for it but I think there were. Along with accusations of our lorewriters of - to broodmother vaginas and threats of reporting it to Steam.

I think their issue was that they got the "Genocide" achievement and went all "how dare does the game make me feel bad about killing stuff".

[donkatsu]

I have nothing against romantic subplots in general but the Melinda one is so awkward that I think including any more romantic subplots, regardless of gender, is not a good idea. I don't think ToME is suited for plots that don't involve murder. You could introduce a lot of murder into the romantic subplot but Melinda is not a very murder-y person so it would still be weird.

[spottedshroom]

Thanks for the civil and constructive conversation, folks.

I think dropping the romantic bits of Melinda's plot would be a good starting point, but I'd still like to see more adjustments made. By changing the tone or emphasis of parts of her story, she would become a more interesting and memorable character, in addition to not perpetuating hackneyed tropes about female weakness.

It's easy to avoid issues that could arise by giving Melinda combat abilities, either at the outset or after training in the fortress. She's undergoing therapy there, which means she can't go with you to tag-team dungeons until the epilogue.

I appreciate that there are rescue quests for male characters, too, but (except for the merchant) those are adventurers who just got in over their heads. Who hasn't been there? And the merchant is an awesome dude sitting on a pile of crazy loot. Melinda is just somebody's daughter.

I'm not saying that ToME is worse than other media in this aspect, just that it's a game I like and that has a responsive community, and that I think we can do better.

[Atarlost]

If Melinda is going to get a variable gender ze should just use the opposite gender of the player character. There are more straight females than gay anything and cultures with high mortality are almost never tolerant of homosexuality. Even classical Greece wasn't really an exception in that even if a boy was for pleasure men were still expected to find a woman for procreation.

Just like Eyal has no blacks because it doesn't have an equatorial landmass populated by diurnal, hairless, hominids who require sunlight to produce vitamin D* it should also have nearly no gays because it's a frikkin death world where having kids to carry on the community is an important duty to the community and those who not only don't contribute but tempt others to not contribute will face severe censure if not banishment or execution. Gender identity is a continuum and heterosexuals already vastly outnumber homosexuals for obvious darwinian reasons. The vast majority of self identified gays are actually bi enough to have heterosexual relationships if there is enough social pressure. The reason why should, again, be obvious: any genetic component to sexual orientation only gets passed on through heterosexual relationships.

Outcasts may have a higher proportion of non-heterosexuals, but while the PC may be an outcast Melinda isn't.

* Orcs reproduce only from functionally immortal mothers and therefore aren't capable of evolution to suit their environment. This means their skin color should be the same as humans, elves, and halflings in Maj'eyal if they need sunlight to produce vitamin D. Since it isn't they must be able to produce vitamin D without sunlight, get it from dietary sources (AFAIK fish are the only significant source on Earth and Eyal has similar fauna so this isn't likely for a non-coastal people), or don't need it.

[Ivels]

There is nothing wrong with having tropes in a video game. We're not trying to break new ground in writing or character development here or engage in social commentary. The writing in Maj'Eyal campaign is just a means of providing a bit of context.

For instance, Elandar and Argoniel are the game's final bosses, but they've have almost no fluff written about them. That's because their purpose is to provide a challenging battle, not be interesting villains. And that's okay.

[edge2054]

@Atarlost.

You're making serious assumptions about the biology of races that don't even exist. Orcs may not require vitamin D at all or maybe they make it some other way. Maybe they have green skin because they're partially able to convert sunlight into sugar.

I'm not touching the comments about sexuality. But I foresee this thread going downhill really quick from here.

[Ivels]

I'm not touching the comments about sexuality. But I foresee this thread going downhill really quick from here.

Last time we've had a thread like this, Melinda started vomiting blight. I'm morbidly curious about where we'll end up this time.

[0player]

Atarlost, you owe me new eyes.