Improving Trash Enemies

[twas Brillig]

Again it's not about making them stronger, it's about making them feel more alive.

What's more interesting, one wolf with 15 atk and 15 damage or three wolves with 5 atk and 5 damage that buff each other when another wolf is within one tile?

For all the naysayers play a TW or PM once 1.3 releases and you'll understand where we're coming from. Monsters can be designed to work better in groups without raising the overall challenge of the game.

I guess the flipside is how do we nerf trash mobs proportional to the buffs. Cutting stats or adding trade-offs or what have you. Heck, interesting doesn't even have to mean "stronger", it could also be adding weaknesses or quirks. Some mobs (mice?) could be cowards and scatter when one is killed, or overkilled, or if their commander mob is killed.

The existing hatchling/drake/wyrm progression might be a way to introduce more dangerous groups over time, rather than dumping all over level 1 characters.

[edge2054]

Mama drake going berserk if a nearby hatchling is killed?

[twas Brillig]

Mama drake going berserk if a nearby hatchling is killed?

I actually meant more like increasingly dangerous "commanders" spawn with associated minions, but this is interesting to.

Even if it were just a log message/chunk of dialog ("Fire drake is enraged! 'Raargh!'"), this could be some nice flavor. That said, a lot of my embarrassing early deaths are from the first time a wyrm shows up, and this might buff those encounters. Actually, drakes and co. are already outside of "trash" territory, and this doesn't do too much to make hatchlings more interesting when they show up on their own.

On the upside, it also has the potentially hilarious interaction of multi-hued wyrms breathing on, aggroing, and then killing their own hatchlings in self-defense, only to become enraged.

[HousePet]

Does anyone actually die to trash mobs?
Is it an issue if they are slightly harder?

[Atarlost]

I've heard complaints that snakes and insects are disproportionately deadly at insane and madness because of how rare/unique boosts combine with naturally high global speed. I've also run into problems with bears (and everything else that stuns) with staff bonkers and other low strength melee builds that don't have some other way of boosting physical saves. The way proc frequencies punish anything but two handed arcane blade builds and mindslayers are pushed towards melee with little apparent reason to invest in anything that boosts physical saves I'd say that may be an issue. I'm not quite sure if bears qualify as trash mobs, though.

I can't think of any reason not to put wolves into packs, though. Just don't give them the pack unfriendly charge talents.

[Razakai]

Treants are something else that need changing. They have quite a lot of health but absolutely no abilities or offence, so they're just dull blobs of health. Plenty of Nature talents you could give them, stuff like Moss, Leaves Tide, Thorn Grab would fit. Or letting them summon Poison Ivy around the player.

[donkatsu]

Hmm, at this point I'd like to clarify what exactly we mean by "trash enemy". I'm not talking about things that are just easy to beat. By that nebulous definition, Elandar on Normal difficulty can be considered "trash", and that's obviously not what we're talking about here. For me, snakes and hatchlings are already outside of trash territory. Snakes are interesting because of their tricky movement which trips up projectile users, and some of them also have poison, which has the potential to be dangerous if you get stunned while poisoned and you're relying on a wild infusion. Sure, they are pointless at higher levels, but you shouldn't be fighting the same monsters that you see in tier 1 dungeons at higher levels. Hatchlings too, are at least capable of doing some damage with their bump attack, they come in packs, are probably the first 100% element resist creatures you'll encounter, and may be harbingers of more dangerous enemies (drakes or wyrms).

I was focusing on monsters that are incapable of endangering the player in any way, even at the lowest level you can possibly encounter them, even when teamed up with other, more dangerous enemies. These include non-elite trolls, molds, foxes, wolves, sandworms, the elite snakes (which are not sufficiently upgraded from regular snakes), bears, and treants. The list is much longer for ranged characters, who often get 9 free turns to attack while not actually being squishier in melee than melee classes.

[HousePet]

Perhaps what we need is to get into specifics then.
So, what enemy is pointless and some ideas for that enemy.

[Forger101]

This is still being worked on. Got the beginnings of a testable version. Original post is also edited to include the link to the git hub page

Code: Select all

Improving Trash Enemies
=======================
Wolves
-----------------------
Replaced standard wolf spawns with an alpha version. Alpha version spawns with a group of current wolves and when is alive will buff the group.
Spawn density for the level will be decreased.

Bears
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Now gain attack speed based on a percentage of their missing health, numbers still being tweaked

Rats/Mice
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Temporarily removed for now, ideas are still welcome to help improve them instead of just removing them.

Molds
----------------------
On death explodes into spores with damage types dependent on color.

Enemies that are just removed
----------------------
Foxes, Giant Rabbits

All ideas listed are subject to change

You can test the changes by going to this Git Repository

[Jurriaan]

If you remove rats and mice, what does the undead starting zone look like? Skeleton archers and the boss?

[Effigy]

I'd rather not fully remove anything if we can avoid it. The goal should be more content, not less. Virtually anything can be made interesting with minor changes.

Rats and mice could have a chance to cause a random disease on hit.

Foxes could have stealth skills.

Rabbits could have mobility-based attacks, such as Rush and Hack'n'Back. They don't need to be hard-hitting, but they can be highly mobile.

[supermini]

I'm not in favor of removing anything either. I don't see a benefit to it.

[SabreCat]

I already get pinned sporadically by foxes, which is sufficient to make them a nuisance! Stealth + pin would be worth worrying about.

[Effigy]

I'd rather they not pin and have stealth instead. Currently there aren't very many enemies with stealth.

[Forger101]

I'm not opposed at all to keeping rabbits and foxes in the game, but as they currently are they are nothing but a nuisance/speedblock. Making them more of a nuisance isn't a good route. I'll add them back in if someone can come up with better mechanics besides giving them more of what makes them nuisances currently.

And I do realize a significant portion won't like the changes that I'm making, but everything is still tentative and in its early stages, so please avoid posting mostly criticism without any better alternatives. If you have a better idea I will most likely listen to you and implement your ideas. But if no one offers up anything I will have to go with my own ideas.