Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs)

[MalReynolds]

Quintuple awesome points. This could be the coolest thing ever.

Maybe different mounts have effects (eg loyalty depletion) slightly based on different stats, ie, drakes are based on cunning, warbears based on str, etc? Not enough to force a choice, just enough to make a slight preference.

Maybe size could matter, eg if you are size large, you could only ride on size XL mounts. And if you are a yeek you could ride on a humanoid. I would dearly love to be able to ride on the shoulders of a minotaur.

[Red]

What about demonic mounts? Perhaps have them as a temporary supermount-incredibly powerful, but due to being demons, their loyalty decreases quickly and at a large enough rate that it will run out no matter what you do.

Aquatic mounts for aquatic dungeons? There aren't a ton, but enough (and land mounts making too little sense) that I think some thought should go here. Obviously an aquatic drake could work, but what about giant squid? or a shark? I would very much enjoy riding a shark.

Perhaps gain a special, revivable mount from killing Urkis? Either a magic mount from Angolwen or an especially powerful beast from Zigur. Zigur could just be a powerful drake, but what would work from Angolwen? A sentient crystal drake mount?

And maybe add in a few NPC special mounts, either for later mounted classes to use or as an interaction between NPCs that have multiple classes. A necromancer outrider should obviously be astride a rather lively corpse, a mindslayer outrider might have a thoughtform mount, and a summoner outrider could change mounts on the fly, perhaps even leaping from mount to mount. (If there's some way to get that in regular outriders I would be stoked.)

Awesome, awesome idea here.

[Faeryan]

I really didn't bother to read every post so I don't know if this has been reasoned already, but to me it sounds a bit silly to have just one mounted character type, as if the rest of the world can't ride.

Gameplay wise the idea seems interesting enough though.

[Sradac]

If they use two weapons...how to they hold onto the mount?

I'd think 2-handed would be the way to go, hold onto mount with 1 hand except when they swing. A shield of course could work as well but I don't see barbarians as the shield type.

[Faeryan]

If they use two weapons...how to they hold onto the mount?

I'd think 2-handed would be the way to go, hold onto mount with 1 hand except when they swing. A shield of course could work as well but I don't see barbarians as the shield type.

With leg muscles. I read somewhere about some nomadic tribe who used to hunt with bow and arrows on horseback with no saddles.

[Sradac]

well those are horses. These guys would be riding massive slithering, plated, slimy, leaping, pouncing beasts

[Red]

Really, really strong leg muscles.

Just to be clear, in this game having sufficient stamina lets you slow down arrows and magical bolts as they come at you. Riding a large animal hands free isn't that ridiculous.

Or, add in saddles. Just have a tanner in Last Hope (and Sunwall Mountains in the east) you have to drop a little bit of cash on (start with a basic saddle, saddles cost 10-100 gold depending on mount) any time you get a new mount and suffer penalties until then.

[Nagyhal]

Maybe different mounts have effects (eg loyalty depletion) slightly based on different stats, ie, drakes are based on cunning, warbears based on str, etc? Not enough to force a choice, just enough to make a slight preference.

Maybe size could matter, eg if you are size large, you could only ride on size XL mounts. And if you are a yeek you could ride on a humanoid. I would dearly love to be able to ride on the shoulders of a minotaur.

Yes.

What about demonic mounts? Perhaps have them as a temporary supermount-incredibly powerful, but due to being demons, their loyalty decreases quickly and at a large enough rate that it will run out no matter what you do.

There will be demon drakes. Mark my word.

Aquatic mounts for aquatic dungeons? There aren't a ton, but enough (and land mounts making too little sense) that I think some thought should go here. Obviously an aquatic drake could work, but what about giant squid? or a shark? I would very much enjoy riding a shark.

I propose some kind of crustacean.

I really didn't bother to read every post so I don't know if this has been reasoned already, but to me it sounds a bit silly to have just one mounted character type, as if the rest of the world can't ride.

I've designed all generic categories, as well as all pure mounted class categories, with this in mind!

The specialization of the Outrider represents the fact that these mounts are not tamed and knowledge of how to subdue them is not widely available.

Also, if anyone would like to tag along with this project and either create their own mounted classes with the Outrider as a base, or weave Outrider talents into pre-existing classes, then that'll be more than welcome. In fact, that'd be totally awesome.

I actually have a fairly fleshed out specification scrawled down on a file in my Ideas folder for a Wind Warden that rides a Great-Eagle-like bird mount and can call weather effects with EQ casting. The mounted abilities are full of juicy, highly kinetic effects with names like "Crack the Rock", although if used in an underground setting then flight abilties require patches of "Clear Sky" to be called down from above.

Can you come up with any other wacky ideas you'd like to see working?

I'd think 2-handed would be the way to go, hold onto mount with 1 hand except when they swing. A shield of course could work as well but I don't see barbarians as the shield type.

I like the reasoning in your defense of my original 2h Outriders! Why didn't I manage to explain it so succinctly?

I'm currently using 2-handed as a proxy but veering towards creating a 1h barbarian combat tree (condensing Barbarous Combat and that Two-Handed tree with Berserker in it), with character options spanning from 1h-and-shield to dual-wielding and even a 1h-only option (which I'll make viable through unique bonuses to the class.)

I'm considering allowing trident usage through an unlockable class tree called "Shock Tactics" which is based on a more knightly sort of combat.

My original choice was based on two things: Firstly, my yearning to have lances and in their absence to imagine greatswords could be a substitute for lances, and secondly, my desire to create thematic distance from TWs where the bows-and-dual-wielding shtick had so very skilfully been done before. Now, though, I've gotten over all this.

The way I see it, a 1-handed Barbarous Combat would differ from 2-handed barbarian combat styles in that it would factor in a significant amount of Cunning dependency, with more mentally debilitating effects rather than the 2-handed styles' dominance in sheer physical power. There would be a couple of extra elements of mobility, along with some tricksy conditionality, but not too much as that can be handled by non-weapon categories. And most excitingly - since I'd be designing from scratch - each ability could be gifted an additional effect while mounted, in the same way as Tyranny of Steel or Gory Spectacle which you can see above.

Or, add in saddles. Just have a tanner in Last Hope (and Sunwall Mountains in the east) you have to drop a little bit of cash on (start with a basic saddle, saddles cost 10-100 gold depending on mount) any time you get a new mount and suffer penalties until then.

I would like to, but I don't think such account-keeping is in the spirit of ToME, the game in which characters acquire earth-shattering abilities seldom by having to do anything more than expend a talent point.

As an Outrider, you ride forth on your improbable mount with naught but a saddle of pure badass.

[Nagyhal]

First properly playable builds are very soon incoming, btw.

[Planetus]

I love the idea, and yes, it drips with flavor.

With that in mind, some suggestions: replace Cun in all talents (and maybe weapon modifiers for slings) with Wil. This more represents the character as a powerful, forboding character, who's will is powerful enough to tame beasts and cripple foes, paired with an equally powerful physique. On top of that, it gives a clear reason to invest in Wil aside from the Loyalty mechanic. As it stands, Wil is still basically a resource stat for this class. This would make it a secondary stat equal to, if not surpassing, Dex.

On the matter of weapons, I agree that off-hand weapons like daggers and mindstars should be useless while mounted. Other weapons, though, get complicated. Most all weapons classically used from horseback were fairly specially designed for that purpose. A regular arming sword didn't have much reach from horseback. Longer, often curved, swords such as cavalry scimitars and sabers were developed to mainly be used with charge tactics. These blades were longer and heavier, but still light enough to be lifted with one hand (more like a bastard sword). They relied mostly on the speed of the horse and the fact that they were being swung (i.e. dropped) from a good height to deliver their power, as opposed to the strength of the wielder. Lances and cavalry spears were specially weighted so that the center of mass was more toward the handle, as opposed to regular polearms which usually had a center of mass closer to the head. Otherwise just holding them level would be all but impossible.

I don't know that that's worth showing in-game though, and riding a well-trained steed (especially with magical/psionic/nature powers in this world) without using either hand is quite possible, so a regular two-handed weapon should work.

I'd also suggest making the movement bonus, and maybe a pin/knockback resistance, passive and standard whenever mounted. Mobility should be a big thing for this class, and that probably means being able to move without necessarily taking a turn. Either that, or have lots of charge/rush/leap abilities (which don't necessarily require an enemy target).

As for the Loyalty resource, I'd say have it take a hit from using certain abilities and whenever the mount is damaged (in any way), but regenerate it while mounted (slowly) and whenever the mount is healed/cured of a status effect. Then also make it so that it shares in any inscription you use while mounted (or at least healing/regen/wild infusions), so you can regenerate loyalty by healing it in battle, but only while mounted (unless you get Nature's Touch or Bathe in Light).

[Nagyhal]

I'd also suggest making the movement bonus, and maybe a pin/knockback resistance, passive and standard whenever mounted. Mobility should be a big thing for this class, and that probably means being able to move without necessarily taking a turn. Either that, or have lots of charge/rush/leap abilities (which don't necessarily require an enemy target).

As for the Loyalty resource, I'd say have it take a hit from using certain abilities and whenever the mount is damaged (in any way), but regenerate it while mounted (slowly) and whenever the mount is healed/cured of a status effect. Then also make it so that it shares in any inscription you use while mounted (or at least healing/regen/wild infusions), so you can regenerate loyalty by healing it in battle, but only while mounted (unless you get Nature's Touch or Bathe in Light).

All this is not merely planned, but for the most part already implemented (and some of it developed even further)! We must be great minds . To tell the truth, I'm still working on completing a nice inscription-granting dialog before I put the loyalty regen elements in. At the moment it's a little moot as the loyalty "anomaly" code is not yet in place - doing these in a way which doesn't completely cheese off the player is quite a sensitive part of the design.

Boy, I sure have my work cut out for me tomorrow.

Right now though I'm just regretting trying to implement drag code...

Anyhow. Great, informative comment re the weaponry. I might still go the one-handed route - purely based on an analysis of what seems popular in fantasy artwork, and nothing else, mind you.

replace Cun in all talents (and maybe weapon modifiers for slings) with Wil

When you see the new talents I've added - raiding and terror tactics inspired by those dastardly Mongol warlords - you'll know why I have to have Cun in there . And besides, I really do like classes with a lot of freedom in their stat choices. I'll be sure to provide a defined role for Will levellers.

[Planetus]

I like the idea of choice in stat development, as it provides a lot of flexibility in builds. Just make sure it doesn't become a host of necessary stats. We have enough classes like that already.