patrols of magicians hunting down wilders/anti-magic users

[Sradac]

HousePet, I thought it was a cool idea.

I would like to play an entire game (perhaps a roguelike, perhaps not) that revolves around being a clandestine mage in a world hostile to your kind. So you have great powers, but are constantly forced to conceal or repress them.

Dishonored sort of has you covered

[Doctornull]

And if mages and alchemists are viewed as people it's Zigur that are the armed death-squads hunting people down. Any Angolwyn military would be engaged primarily in hunting necromancers and corruptors, who aren't really viewed as people. Any fighting with Zigurite patrols would be self defense because anyone who accepts magic must view Zigur as dangerous lunatics. Only if mages are all monsters can Zigur patrols not be.

I wouldn't mind if Angolwen had patrols which are neutral UNLESS you go for Anti-Magic.

That would be a neat symmetry: Zigur hates you if you have Runes, Angolwen hates you if you declare that you are opposed to the continued breathing of all mages.

Angolwen patrols might also be hostile to uncloaked undead, but pretty much everyone is so that's not really special.

[Red]

If that happens, Zigur should probably be made less hostile. After all, you can waltz into Zigur itself with a Rune of Telerportation and a host of arcane items and they don't care. Antimagic patrols should really only be hostile if Zigur's invisible-using a Rune might make them suspicious, but if they let you into the heart of their lives it can hardly merit death.

[Lyoncet]

If that happens, Zigur should probably be made less hostile. After all, you can waltz into Zigur itself with a Rune of Telerportation and a host of arcane items and they don't care. Antimagic patrols should really only be hostile if Zigur's invisible-using a Rune might make them suspicious, but if they let you into the heart of their lives it can hardly merit death.

Pretty much this. Fixing the Ziguranth patrol logic would go farther to reconcile major plot holes than just about any other change of such a small scale. And I don't think patrols being hostile to anyone with a rune adds any compelling gameplay when they can simply be avoided and they're not hostile to all player characters to begin with. I can see leaving Zigur off-limits to Alchemists perhaps, but still not sending the death squads after them since they're not so much seen as perverters of nature. Plus, that'd add some internal consistency to the class description's claim that Alchemists are seen in a different light than other arcane users, and it would clear up the Tannen plot hole.

Not a lore concern but still worth mentioning: it would also help new players a lot. I struggled to figure out why Ziguranth patrols were hunting me down on my Alchemist (and also my Shaloren Summoner, who could stroll straight into town no problem). Making that more transparent/consistent could only help.

Although I do find it odd that Zigur itself remains friendly for players who acquire spells/arcane resources later on. Could be hand-waved I suppose by saying it's harder to peg a Berserker with Healing Light as an arcane user than someone like a full-fledged spell-caster.

[Doctornull]

Although I do find it odd that Zigur itself remains friendly for players who acquire spells/arcane resources later on. Could be hand-waved I suppose by saying it's harder to peg a Berserker with Healing Light as an arcane user than someone like a full-fledged spell-caster.

If you gain Healing Light in your first t1 dungeon, you will not see Zigur on the world map.

Alternately, as a Yeek Archmage or Chronmancer, you can un-learn all your Spells before walking out of Yeektown and you will see Zigur.

The game logic is a bit weird, but that's not a matter of flavor disagreement -- it's that properly reactive coding is more difficult than what currently exist, and nobody who cares about this issue is willing to learn how to code sufficiently to fix it.


Note that Angolwen will allow you to enter even if you arrange for their Diviners and Alchemists to be burned alive by Zigur bigots. If you make the insane Zigur extremists more "rational" -- not really a trait I associate with extremists -- then you might want to also have consequences for helping them murder innocent Arcanists, by having the Arcane city not be friendly to people who aid their enemy.

[Lyoncet]

I like the idea of word spreading back to Angolwen - I'm all for more meaningful choices!

As for difficulty of coding, I'd be more than happy to take the path of least resistance and simply reconcile the different Zigur hostility triggers so they're more consistent. Sure, rationality isn't generally the domain of extremists, but then again some sort of internal consistency (read: rigid dogma) is pretty par for the course.

[Atarlost]

And if mages and alchemists are viewed as people it's Zigur that are the armed death-squads hunting people down. Any Angolwyn military would be engaged primarily in hunting necromancers and corruptors, who aren't really viewed as people. Any fighting with Zigurite patrols would be self defense because anyone who accepts magic must view Zigur as dangerous lunatics. Only if mages are all monsters can Zigur patrols not be.

I wouldn't mind if Angolwen had patrols which are neutral UNLESS you go for Anti-Magic.

That would be a neat symmetry: Zigur hates you if you have Runes, Angolwen hates you if you declare that you are opposed to the continued breathing of all mages.

Angolwen patrols might also be hostile to uncloaked undead, but pretty much everyone is so that's not really special.

I thought that's what the suggestion was for, though I think that based on the lore Angolwyn should also be hostile to people with the vim or souls resources.

[Lyoncet]

...though I think that based on the lore Angolwyn should also be hostile to people with the vim or souls resources.

You'd have to be careful with that in two ways.

One - is it actually stated that Angolwen is opposed to Vim use? I guess the "stolen life force" part isn't very friendly, but WoDG (Word of darkgod) holds that blight magics are inherently morally neutral. And your average Vim-user is no more or less likely to have slaughtered thousands than your average player character, which Angolwen seems fine with as long as you're not actively dedicated to Angolwen's destruction.

Two - You'd need an alternate way of reaching Urkis, since currently the routes are Angolwen and Zigur (which would obviously be barred). You could have the Grand Corruptor fill the role, but what reason does he have to oppose Urkis, who'd make a much more valuable ally than enemy? Also Mark of the Spellblaze is a lot later in the game than Tempest Peak. I guess you don't need to to Tempest Peak now that he doesn't drop Rod of Recall, but I think it would be better not to close off an important dungeon to just a couple of classes.

[Red]

I agree with Lyoncet that Angolwen has no reason to be hostile towards Defilers or Necromancers.

However, if that is implemented, you could still fight Urkis. After saving (or "saving", as the case might be) Derth from his minions, if you cannot access Angolwen or Zigur, Urkis sends another squad of lightning elementals out to kill you, led by a snow giant. Upon slaughtering all the elementals (with the giant safely in the back, possibly with aunique ability that cripples offensive capabilities but greatly increases defense) the giant runs away, you go from Ambush! to the world map, and a note pops up that you can follow the giant back to the mountain to hunt down his master.

It might not make perfect sense (you really wouldn't find the mountain unless you actually follow the giant there) but this is a game where you can miss an entire slime-covered jungle-like place in the middle of the freaking artic just because you haven't remembered it's there. Not to mention spontaneously remembering it in the middle of combat with a pack of ghouls, becuase you happen to level up there.

[HousePet]

I've considered two additional routes:

If you side with the Assassin Lord, you are directed to take out this naughty Tempest for being bad for 'business'.

If you think that you should be the evil overlord around the place, you could ask the Fortress Shadow to track the source of the storms and then you go take out this upstart.

[Doctornull]

If you think that you should be the evil overlord around the place, you could ask the Fortress Shadow to track the source of the storms and then you go take out this upstart.

Yeah, there ought to be a way to become an evil overlord, but instead of the Fortress Shadow, maybe you can find Urkis yourself by killing stuff in Daikara, or maybe find clues when you kill Adventurers & Zigur patrols after clearing out Derth. Zigur surely knows about him, so "enhanced interrogation techniques" on some Zigurites might get you the location you want.

Doing this quest obviously gets you ownership of Derth and therefore lower prices in the crappy Derth stores.

[Red]

Why would you want to rule Derth? There's just so little point to it-there's maybe a couple dozen people, none of whom are exceptionally skilled, and a bundle of shitty, T1 items.

Now, if we could rule Last Hope, Angolwen, or Zigur, that'd be another story. Those are cities worth conquering. Ruling them gives you power-ruling Derth gives you a merit badge for an evil dictatorship.

[grayswandir]

If you side with the Assassin Lord, you are directed to take out this naughty Tempest for being bad for 'business'.

Ooooooo.