Race+Class+Background(subclass?)

[Red]

Shurg. I'm interpreting another person's words, so I offer no promise of accuracy. Looking at the words, though, it couldn't be overly dificult to put as an extra category beyond race and class, as in the OP.

Even if I'm dead right (and therefore Davion dead wrong), the idea is worth some effort. Tweak it, figure out where it could go, find a way to make it work instead of just letting a good idea flop because of a rough start.

[tilkau]

Sure. I'm neutral about the whole background-as-class-modifier idea. I was just pointing out that any scheme with a blanket 'only X gets Y' system requires you to have every single addon developer onboard with it, which just ain't happening ever -- those logistics are close enough to impossible. You have to change it from 'only X gets Y' to something more lenient before it can become remotely practical.

[Davion Fuxa]

I don't understand most of what you're saying here, sorry. I'm sure you're saying good stuff, I just can't figure out what you mean.

The thing about diluting the value of escorts, though: that's true and in some ways intentional. The value of some escorts (e.g. Anorithil to get Celestial / Light for undead Archmagi) is so high that people either restart, escort-scum, or use addons like Succor to guarantee that specific escort will show up. This would allow you to not scum, restart, or use another addon to guarantee that one escort.

But in trade for that, they have to give something up (in that example, they'd give up Spell / Divinations). Now they may hope for a Seer escort to get that tree, or at least to get some points in Arcane Eye.Thanks.

Except we have Category Point/Talent Point scarcity in the mix.

Players still need to pay 1 Category point to open up the locked background category (with the exception of the Default/Adventurer Background) they would get from my idea - on top of most classes having at least 1 locked category (sometimes 2) that they really want to unlock, and characters can also unlock 2 extra inscription slots.

Assuming Category Points aren't an issue (Players chose Cornac or the Default/Adventurer Background), the player still also has think about Generic Points.

*****

On the topic of Build Point Scarcity as well, I'll note that the Default Background giving a Free Category Point to invest could be changed to something else if that is felt like we are giving too much in the Category Point department and/or Generic Points don't provide enough of a Scarcity to balance out concerns that players would call up category value problems again. I mostly threw that in there because it was thematic, but maybe we could give something else in place of it.

*****

About the rest -- sorry, could you re-phrase?

Apologies, for the text. I'd meant to post a shorter reply and make another later but failed to erase some of the text.

Anyhow....

To Start-

Breaking the Escort Reward Categories from the classes is meant to fully allow for tweaking them. From there we can compare the categories against each other and actively modify Escort Reward list.

To give an example:

Celestial/Light is too powerful and we don't want it in the list because it skews player valuation too much. We decide that we like the idea of Merging Technique/Mobility and Technique Field/Control into one new category called Technique/Mobile Field Control. We remove the Anorithil Escorts from appearing in the game; maybe making Celestial/Light a rewarded category or something elsewhere.

Reference to Survival/Field Control thread

Going from there though, certain categories like Spell/Stone Alchemy or Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild are closely related to certain classes but also have other elements of concern. Spell/Stone Alchemy for instance has a prodigy linked to it, and taking it off the list and making it Alchemist (or by associated Stone Warden) only would limit the Prodigy to those respective classes. Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild is strongly needed by Wilder classes to operate due to how their equilibrium resource works. A lot of the Meta-Class framework can be used to address this though since an Alchemist plays in noway shape or form like a Archmage or Necromancer while Wilders are the only classes that start with the Equilibrium resource, and that categories in question usually aren't among the ones that are considered 'must have' luckily - though they do offer their own individual benefits to be notable.

In addition to all this there are a few problems with all of this. One problem with breaking away all the categories from the classes is that some classes are losing a lot of spaces to put Generic Talents due to a loss of Generic Categories. Some classes such as the Stone Warden given as a previous example, have three categories which are also Escort Reward Categories and Combat Training on the Generic Side - and that's it. Another problem is that moving all the categories to be associated Meta-Class labels would limit only does Meta-Classes to using that specific Escort Reward Category.

To Alleviate all this, the player gets four selection choices given to them in character creation:

• -Selection of Race
  -Selection of Class
  -Selection of Meta-Class Category (Unlocked Category from available Meta-Class Categories)
  -Selection Background Category (Locked Category from available Escort Reward Categories)

Assuming we don't lock any of the Background choices at all, choosing from the Background Categories would include all categories which can also be Rewarded from Escorts.

The Meta-Class Categories and Background choice-

One benefit then is that players creating characters now have access to at least two of the Escort Reward Categories. To bring up the Undead Archmage example, the player won't have any problem picking up Spell/Divination because the Meta-Class Mage starts out with Spell/Divination. After picking up the Meta-Class Category, the player moves on to pick up a Free Escort Reward Category at category level 0.8 and locked. From the Background category choice, the player can then pick up whatever Escort Category Reward he wants - I'll use Technique/Mobile Field Control as an example if Celestial/Light is removed.

The above said, the player may of course want to play other characters besides those found in Meta-Class Mage, but isn't necessarily keen on picking a class from Meta-Class Warrior just so he can make sure he picks up the two categories he really wants; maybe he picks up an Undead Rogue from Meta-Class Rogue. While the player might not be able to get both categories he will still pick up the category from Meta-Class Rogue, and hopefully the shitty talents of Heightened Senses, Charm Mastery, Piercing Sight, and Track in Cunning/Survival will be able to shore up some of the difference because we balanced the Escort Reward Categories well enough.

*****

Something to throw in as well is that the idea could also work by allowing categories to be associated with Multiple Meta-Classes as well. IE, Meta-Class Warrior might feature Technique/Conditioning and Technique/Mobile Field Control while Meta-Class Rogue features Cunning/Survival and Technique/Mobile Field Control.

I'd be careful of too much overlap but a little is probably okay.

*****

I'm trying to figure out where you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, and I just can't figure it out.

Personally I think the main issue here is simply one of lack of explanation and clarification.

*****

Oh. Well, if that is the case, that's fundamentally unscalable and incompatible with existing systems. It requires you to have a level of control over every single class in the system, including any addon classes. That's just not gonna happen.

In a choice between multiple new systems that vie to do the same thing, if one of those systems (like mine) breaks all the addons in the game while another doesn't (such as the one Doctornull proposed earlier in the thread) then the system that breaks all the addons shouldn't be chosen - unless it is decidable superior.

Right now that is pretty well why I'm still arguing my idea - because I think it is superior and decidable better idea.

Specifically, my rationale thus far in my idea:

• -improves existing features of the game (Meta-Class Labels) instead of just creating a new feature alongside it.
  -separates a problematic element of the game into its own unique sphere (Escort Reward Categories) that players feel is imbalanced and attempts to address it.
  -still achieves the ultimate goal set out to accomplish.
  -opens up room for additional elements and ideas to be incorporated into the game. (Meta-Class Warrior gives HP Mod increase, Meta-Class Rogue gives Defense, etc)

[Doctornull]

Okay, so I think I can agree that the idea of making Meta-Class more meaningful is a good idea, but it would be a LOT of work.

Also, enhancing Meta-Class would be work that isn't necessary for adding Backgrounds.

So, I think that if you eventually do get a way to make Meta-Class have more mechanical impact, then you can adjust Backgrounds to fit into that new scheme. But that new scheme can happen any time, and there's no need to try to bundle it with Backgrounds.

Does that make sense?

[Davion Fuxa]

Yep, fully.

[Red]

I approve of Davion's plan 100%. I personally use Succor, simply because every single build I use can use some kind of escort reward category, and the random nature of such a big part of character development is a personal sticking point. To me, your level up screen is where you have control, a place where the randomness of a roguelike can't touch you. Your inventory might be yours, but its contents are random, but here there is the same thing every game, so long as you choose the same class and race.

And then escorts, with some very valuable categories, smurf the whole thing up. Something like this, that neatly makes it something you choose without unbalancing the game (power creep is fun until you realize the only difference is bigger numbers and more one shots) is perfect to fix that issue.

Course, I'll have to disable Succor then. Goodbye abusing escorts for free generic points.

[Doctornull]

Yep, fully.

Cool, glad we're all agreed.

IMHO meta-class is more of a feel-and-flavor thing. Like, all the Rogue metaclasses seem to have "difficult start" and "long fights are lost fights" in common, and even if most of the specifics behind their tactics are different, the tactical feel is pretty similar. If that makes sense.

Anyway. Let's get back to designing Background as an independent thing -- if it ends up a thing that can fit in Meta-Class that's fine too, but let's not require that.

So, the mechanic I can think of is either:
- Designated Generic Trees (e.g. Survival, Divinations, etc.), or
- Marked Per-Class Trees (adding a tag to certain trees in every class).

The latter is more flexible, but the former is less work for both existing code and may allow addon classes to integrate more easily.

Designated Generic Trees
- Put a tag in (some of) the trees which Escorts can grant, plus maybe Dark Gifts if people like that background idea.
- Automatically remove those trees from all regular and addon classes.
- Advanced coding challenge: if multiple unlocked trees would be removed, do something clever.

Marked Per-Class Trees
- Go through each class and mark at least one Generic tree as substitutable.
- That one tree gets removed and the Background tree gets stuck in at the same mastery and locked/unlocked status.
- For addon classes which don't have a marked tree, maybe use DGT above.

[Davion Fuxa]

If you are going to go through the classes via Designated Generic Tree's then it would probably be a good idea to first determine what Categories are Class Essential. Something like Spell/Stone Alchemy needs to be marked as a category that Alchemists need to start with, or Wild-Gift/Call of the Winds needs to be marked as essential to Equilibrium classes. After doing that look to see what would be removed.

Marked Per Class Trees have a bit more leeway granted because you can go in and say that certain categories aren't essential - or they are all essential and the Background category should just get added without removal of any of the classes categories.

[Doctornull]

If you are going to go through the classes via Designated Generic Tree's then it would probably be a good idea to first determine what Categories are Class Essential. Something like Spell/Stone Alchemy needs to be marked as a category that Alchemists need to start with, or Wild-Gift/Call of the Winds needs to be marked as essential to Equilibrium classes. After doing that look to see what would be removed.

Yeah absolutely. I think that's a strong indication that Per-Class is the right way to go.

Marked Per Class Trees have a bit more leeway granted because you can go in and say that certain categories aren't essential - or they are all essential and the Background category should just get added without removal of any of the classes categories.

I really hope that isn't the case... damn near everyone has Survival, so that's getting a mark if nothing else.

[Davion Fuxa]

Everyone has Survival, though a couple things differ:

-Brawler, Alchemist, Archmage, Afflicted Meta-Class, Defiler Meta-Class, Celestial Meta-Class, Wyrmics, Chronomancer Meta-Class, and Psionic Meta-Class all have it locked.
-Bulwark, Berserker, Archer, Arcane Blade, Meta-Class Rogue, Necromancer, Summoner, Stone Warden, and Oozemancer have it unlocked.

-Oozemancer, Celestial Meta-Class, Reaver, Shadowblade, and Arcane Blade all have a Category level of 1.1 for Survival
-Skirmisher, Marauder, Rogue all have a Category level of 1.3 for Survival
-Mage Meta-Class has a Category level of 0.9 for Survival
-Psionic Meta-Class, Chronomancer Meta-Class, Stone Warden, Wyrmic, Summoner, Corrupter, Afflicted Meta-Class, Bulwark, Archer, Berserker, and Bulwark all have Category level 1.0 for Survival

[Davion Fuxa]

I figured while I'm at it I'll look at all the categories from the classes. Here's how I'd see it for Designated Generic Trees in the case of categories that woudl probably be essential:

Technique/Unarmed Training
Cunning/Scoundrel
Technique/Acrobatics
Technique/Thuggery
Spell/Stone Alchemy
Spell/Staff Combat
Spell/Conveyance
Spell/Aegis
Cursed/Cursed Form
Cursed/Dark Sustenance
Cursed/Gestures
Corrupter/Torment
Celestial/Light
Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild
Wild-Gift/Fungus
Wild-Gift/Antimagic
Wild-Gift/Mindstar Mastery
Chronomancy/Spacetime Weaving

and then the stuff in Psionic (Still haven't played Mindslayers or Solipsists yet).

I'd also add that I would consider it essential that all classes have at least three generic categories - two of which would need to be unlocked.

Archers, Alchemists, and Necromancers which only has three generic categories would be unable to lose a generic category, should instead just gain the category outright.
Brawlers, Rogues, Marauders, Doomed, Reaver, and Solispsist should probably have their total generic categories available to them reduced, and one of their remaining categories made interchangable.

[Doctornull]

I figured while I'm at it I'll look at all the categories from the classes. Here's how I'd see it for Designated Generic Trees in the case of categories that woudl probably be essential:

Technique/Unarmed Training
Cunning/Scoundrel
Technique/Acrobatics
Technique/Thuggery
Spell/Stone Alchemy
Spell/Staff Combat
Spell/Conveyance
Spell/Aegis
Cursed/Cursed Form
Cursed/Dark Sustenance
Cursed/Gestures
Corrupter/Torment
Celestial/Light
Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild
Wild-Gift/Fungus
Wild-Gift/Antimagic
Wild-Gift/Mindstar Mastery
Chronomancy/Spacetime Weaving

The only one I disagree with is Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild, which is not necessary for Oozemancers, and even some Wyrmics can get away without any points in it (once they get Fungus rolling). For Summoners, yeah, I think it's necessary.

I'd also add that I would consider it essential that all classes have at least three generic categories - two of which would need to be unlocked.

Yeah, that's a good goal.

Alchemists only have TWO unlocked generic categories. Adding one more -- even if it's just Survival unlocked -- would make the early game more interesting IMHO.

Archers, Alchemists, and Necromancers which only has three generic categories would be unable to lose a generic category, should instead just gain the category outright.
Brawlers, Rogues, Marauders, Doomed, Reaver, and Solispsist should probably have their total generic categories available to them reduced, and one of their remaining categories made interchangable.

This looks correct to me.

Thanks for going over all the classes!

[Davion Fuxa]

I mostly compiled the list in regards to what I felt at least had one class that needed one category because I figured their might be disagreements if I went class by class.

Arguably btw, Wyrmics certainly need need Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild because they need every little bit that helps at the moment due to subpar damage output later in the game. I had to use Mediation sometimes on both my recent Thaloran and Yeek Wyrmics to keep my equilibrium in check when Swallow wasn't doing enough - several times in the Fight Boss Fights. But Summoners certainly need it without a doubt so we can just establish its necessary on account of Summoners.

As a note, the list ignores Mindslayers and Solispsist. I would assume that some of the Psionic abilities might be more then just quality of life categories for them.