Gave up on retaining the old Necromancer as much as possible and just tried for the best class I could… this has been added to the Addons section and hopefully someone will help code it. Good times.
The premise of this build is to utilize a balance between life and death and neg-life plus life/damage sharing...
Necrotic Minions:
1. Create Minions… Summons only skeletons, ghouls, ghasts, and Ghoulkings. Minion cap is 1 per active talent level. Removes EotD bonus.
In addition, this spell can crit and at least 1 of your minions will gain additional levels equal to (crit multiplier * 0.45) + (active talent lvl of spell).
Skeleton Mages and Barrow Wrights gain the Phase Door. Grave Wrights gain Phase Soul skill.
Grant Liches the Phase Soul skill instead of Phase Door. All of these are equal to your Create Minions talent level.
*** for "Blighted Summoning" Prodigy, skeleton mages gain Dark Portal instead of Bone Spear.
Cost is 5 mana and 1 soul per minion.
2. Aura Mastery… Dark Empathy effect is folded into this talent as part of the sustain. This sustain cannot be deactivated when you're at or below 0 life… it acts as a passive in that situation.
3. Surge of Undeath… same effect except that the accuracy bonus scales massively.
4. Undeath Link… this is no longer a heal but a sharing effect such that all damage and healing affecting you or your minions, excluding Husk/Forgery of the Haze, is shared equally among all of you. Duration is 5 + active talent level.
Mana cost is increased to 40 and cool-down is increased to 24.
Nightfall: Changes all damage to 50% darkness and 50% cold.
Necrosis:
1. Invocation of Decrepitude: new active skill...
Use: Activated
Range: Necrotic Aura
Cost: 35 mana
Use speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 35
This skill causes all non-undead creatures, including yourself, within your Necrotic Aura to lose 2% of their current life, per turn, for the duration of this spell, in the form of arcane damage. Duration increases with active talent level (2 + 1 per active talent level) and there is no save against this.
This spell has no effect on the Undead, potentially including yourself.
In addition, while you're at or below 0 life, this spell does an additional 1% of current life.
2. Impending Doom… gains 100% spellpower solely for the purpose of overcoming the enemy save when you're at or below 0 life.
3. Become Death… new passive skill:
Whenever you're at or below 0 life, your Necrotic Aura becomes enhanced such that it functions in a similar manner to a Cursed Gloom effect.
All enemies within your Necrotic Aura must save against you spellpower each turn, and if they fail, they lose one beneficial effect or sustain of any type (including anti-magic and prodigies) or if none exist, a 10% chance for any talent to fail. For the purpose of this spell, you gain a spellpower bonus equal to 5% of your real magic power per active talent level in order to overcome enemy saves.
Non-undead can also be inflicted by the Necrosis effect:
The Necrosis effect is a magic effect and causes a resource and life drain of 25% of current over 8 turns. Doesn't affect odd resources like souls, paradox, equilibrium, et al., but will still drain life. Affects: Stamina, Mana, Positive and Negative Energy, Vim, Hate, and Psi.
If you increase your life above 0 life, the aura lingers for 3 additional turns.
4. Chance of Life
Use: Sustain
Range: 1-51
Cost: 200 mana
Use speed: instant
Cool-down: 40
As long as this sustain is active, if you're dropped to or below 0 life (if this triggers, it can save you from death), there is a maximum "28/34%" chance that you'll be "resurrected" and gain 36/51% life, mana, reduced cool-downs, and teleported randomly within range "x."
The max life, cool-down, and mana recovery scale with magic and active talent level. For living characters, the max is 36% but for undead classified characters, the max is 51%. The cool-down reduction only affects skills currently on cool-down.
The max chance to trigger a "resurrection" is 28% for normal characters and 34% for undead or those classified temporarily as undead. This scales with talent point investment.
After investing 5 talent points, this sustain has a chance to trigger on every hit when you're at or below 0 life. Can only successfully trigger once per turn and cannot trigger if you're currently silenced. It will also check twice if you're in positive life, once at 0 and once at death.
This sustain goes on cool-down if it triggers.
Grave:
1. Chill of the Tomb… changes damage to 50% cold and 50% darkness.
2. Will o' the Wisp… changes damage to 50% cold and 50% darkness. In addition, whenever you're at max capacity of souls, there is a 10% chance (per active talent level) of creating a wisp from any souls generated from killing enemies, etc., at cost of 5.0 mana per wisp created.
3. Cold Flames… changes damage to 50% cold and 50% darkness.
4. Vampiric Gift… This only affects damage dealt within your necrotic aura.
Animus:
1. Consume Soul… changes EotD bonus. This spell cannot crit.
2. Animus Hoarder… changes effect to soul recycling ability rather than chance to gain extra soul. This allows for a stable 50% chance to recover souls from any one of your minions that dies within your necrotic aura either from enemy damage, friendly fire, etc.
In addition, all criticals of any type have 7% chance per active talent level of generating a soul when at or below 0 life.
This still retains the increased soul cap of up to 19.
3. Animus Purge… Instead of a Husk, this is a Forgery of the Haze hybrid. You force out the soul of the enemy with "x" damage and if a small enough amount of life remains, it replaces it with a copy of your own creating a Forgery of the Haze. Can't be healed and has no duration limit.
In addition, the damage is counted as 50% cold and 50% darkness and can only be cast within your Necrotic Aura. This spell can also be used on your own minions in which case, it has a 100% success rate but does not actually cause damage.
Gains EotD bonus.
4. Essence of the Dead… changes below:
Adds a bonus to Blood Golem: grants Dark Empathy synergy such that Blood Golem is immune to friendly fire.
Adds a bonus to Animus Purge: Forgery/Husk hybrid is immune to damage from you and your minions.
Adds a bonus to Undead Explosion: doubles damage and range.
Changes Assemble bonus such that it guarantees a Runed Bone Giant.
Changes Consume Soul bonus such that it grants a 5-turn regeneration effect in addition to and equal to the base life and mana restored.
Remove bonus from Shadow Tunnel, Ice Shards, Undeath Link, and Create Minions.
Advanced Necrotic Minions:
1. Minion Mastery… changed to "Create Greater Undead." This is an active skill that summons all of the more advanced minion types. Cost is 7 mana and 1 soul per minion, also it raises the minion cap by 1 at active talent levels 1, 3, 5, 7, etc. This will summon 1 minion per active talent level or up to cap, whichever is less.
You can only control 1 Lich at a time.
This spell can crit and at least 1 of your minions will gain additional levels equal to (crit multiplier * 0.45) + (active talent lvl of spell). The number of minions that the crit-bonus applies to is an even distribution between 1 and max.
More so, this spell is targeted in a radius rather than in a cone a la Create Minions.
2. Assemble… always consumes lowest-tiered minions for Bone Giant.
In addition, the limit for Bone Giant summons is changed such that:
lvl 1 - Bone Giant at your lvl - 4.
lvl 2 - Heavy Bone Giant at your level at your level -2
lvl 3 - can create a 2nd Bone Giant at your level.
lvl 4 - Eternal bone Giant at your level +1.
lvl 5 - 20% Chance of Runed Bone Giant at your level +2. In addition, it eliminates the limit on # of Bone Giant minions except as per minion cap.
lvl 6 and beyond grants additional +1 additional level.
Bone Giants count as 3 against your minion cap. You can only have 1 Runed Bone Giant under your control at a time.
This spell can crit… doing so produces a Bone Giant with additional levels of (crit multiplier * active talent lvl/2) + 1.
Changes EotD bonus.
3. Sacrifice… is now targetable. Mana cost is increased to 25.
If used on any Bone Giant, the effect is unchanged: maximum damage shield.
If used on a basic or greater minion then it provides 1 random ward per active talent level (it guarantees 1 physical ward).
Cannot be used on a Blood Golem, Forgery of the Haze/Husk, or Shadow.
4. Blood Golem:
Use: Activated
Range: 3
Cost: 100 mana
Use Speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 26
This spell combines 1 basic and 1 advanced minion into a Blood Golem that is tied to your life. This creature absorbs all damage it delivers to enemies which is then converted into a heal, affected by your heal mod, which it shares and increases. Excess life from drain/heal is wasted unless Undeath Link is active.
It possesses moderate life and damage, but a significant regen rate, all of which scale to active talent level. The rate of damage to heal conversion is: (any damage it inflicts * (your heal mod +1.2) * 65%).
Only 1 can be summoned and counts as 2 minions against your cap. This minion has a standard set of talents but also gains 2 additional talents based on the particular combination of minions used.
This spell cannot crit. If this golem is killed, you immediately suffer approximately 100-45% of its max life as direct physical damage that can bypasses damage shields and wards but not Undeath Link or Sacrifice. The amount of life you suffer diminishes 8% per active talent level.
Gains EotD bonus such that Dark Empathy effect is shared with the Blood Golem.
*** For "Blighted Summoning" prodigy, this gains Bone Shield at active talent level equal to 1/2 talent point invested in this skill.
Shades:
1. Shadow Tunnel… transports your minions through the underworld to you from anywhere on the map. Improves evasion bonus but loses EotD bonus.
At level 2, the act of opening a gateway through the underworld is violent and thus gains % chance of releasing 1 wisp or poltergeist at the original location of each of your minions. Damage scales to active talent level.
Mana cost is increased to 30.
2. Dark Vision… new passive skill.
After any enemy or minion is killed, you gain a radius "1 + active talent level/2" vision in that spot for "1 turn per active talent level." This is due to your ability to communicate with the dead… it essentially acts as a limited Arcane Eye.
Radius and duration increase with active talent level.
3. Grim Shadow… new sustain skill.
Cost: 50 mana
Instant Cast
Cool-down: 36
This skill infuses a portion of your life into your shadow to grant it the appearance of life whenever your life is at or below 0 life. This shadow will spawn somewhere within your necrotic aura and has no skills, takes no damage. It exists as an added target which can be moved to a minimum and maximum pre-set range. It can move on its own and absorb attacks, although not beams, etc., as attacks just go right through it.
Enemies cannot tell the difference between you and the shadow and will target each of you equally. The shadow can be cancelled and while active produces a constant mana drain of 1 per turn, per talent point invested. With each additional active level, there is an added 3% chance that enemies will target the shadow.
If the Shadow should stand in any magical darkness such as from a Doomed, it will cause the Shadow to be unseen and thus ignored by the enemy. Shadow is cancelled should it leave your Necrotic Aura, i.e. if you teleport away.
Sustain goes on cool-down when you raise your life about 0 although the shadow lingers for 0.5 + 0.5 turns per active talent level.
4. FrostDusk… no change.
Ice: … no change.
Mastery of Death: Level 10 locked category at 1.2.
1. Grasping Claws:
Use: Activated
Range: Necrotic Aura
Cost: 25 mana and 2 souls
Use Speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 14
Causes the dead to reach up from the ground and grab at enemies within your Necrotic Aura, inflicting a small amount of physical damage and pin. With added levels it gains a chance to cause bleeding, and disease.
Duration scales with active talent level, albeit slowly. It gains an additional turn at active talent level 1, 4, 7, etc.
2. Undead Explosion… Skeletons and Bone Giants cause physical damage with chance to cause bleeding. All other minions cause blight damage with chance to infect enemy with disease. Mana cost and cool down remain unchanged.
This ability can now be used on any regular undead enemy in addition to your own minions. However, the success rate is equal to how much life they've lost (excluding negative life). Thus, if an enemy has lost 90% of its life then this spell has a 90% chance of success. On your own minions, the success rate is 100%.
Gains EotD bonus.
3. Blood Curse:
Use: Activated
Range: Necrotic Aura
Cost: 50 mana
Use Speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 18
Causes damage to any enemy affected by pin, disease, or bleeding from any source, as long as it is within your Necrotic Aura. Damage stacks, i.e. if an enemy has more than one of the below status-effects, it'll suffer damage for each status effect.
Any enemy pinned suffers added physical damage and chance of disarm.
Any enemy bleeding suffers bloody cysts to explode inflicting radius 1 blight damage.
Any enemy that is diseased suffers blight damage and chance to spread disease.
4. Fatal Spite:
Use: Active
Range: 1
Cost: 50 mana and 5 souls
Use Speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 30
Delivers to 1 target, in melee range of you or one of your minions, blight/darkness damage equal to 100% of the cumulative amount of life below the max for you and all of your minions. Then, you suffer 100%-60% (scales with talent point investment) of said damage on a 1-turn delay as arcane damage.
When at or below 0 life, the delay increases to 2 turns.
Thus, you'd have Survival, Divination, and the new Necromancy as your generics.
Necromancy:
1. Blurred Mortality… no changes except with Lichform.
2. Phase Soul
Use: Activated
Range: 4-10+ with active talent level.
Cost: 30/60 mana
Use Speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 8/2
This is a perfect, intermediate teleport, albeit an expensive one. It works outside of line of sight with 0% fail.
Range increases per active talent level. This teleport cannot be "targeted" on enemies, escorts, etc. Range scales with active talent level.
In addition:
If you're at or below 0 life (either with equipment, Blurred Mortality, or Heroism infusion, etc.), then this teleport's cool-down is reduced to 2 although the mana cost doubles and the range is reduced by half.
3. Harvest:
Use: Activated
Range: N/A
Cost: 5 mana and 99.99% of life.
Use speed: 1 turn
Cool-down: 36
This spell immediately reduces your life to 0 in exchange for granting the undead status for up to 15 (scales with active talent level) turns and gaining absolute immunity to all new status effects AND damage for 1 turn. Duration increases to 2 at active talent lvl 7 (so with a category mastery).
This will cure 1 +1 status effects per active talent level.
This ability does not work if you're already at or below 0 HP.
4. Lichform… gains passive bonus: Blurred Mortality now scales to constitution at 1.25% per point of constitution in addition to current amount.
Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.
Moderator: Moderator
Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.
Last edited by Delmuir on Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:00 am, edited 115 times in total.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept…
Initial problem I see - Aura mastery being stuck at the end of a tree. Maybe I missed something, but you'll still want the bigger aura as caster for the extra souls and all the other effects you've tacked onto the aura, but they'll be forced to get the entire minions tree. Not to mention waiting until level 12 for it will make the early game painful.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept…
Excellent point and it's done!
This is my fourth or fifth post on this and I knew that about the Aura mastery from a previous thread and yet I still made that mistake, ha ha. Thank you!
This is my fourth or fifth post on this and I knew that about the Aura mastery from a previous thread and yet I still made that mistake, ha ha. Thank you!
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept…
Question for you: what's the problem you're trying to address? Specifically (Talents XYZ a have problems ABC) or generally (Playstyle is flawed/limited)? I'm sure a lot of/most posters know, but someone like me who doesn't have an idea of what may need shoring up would be able to deliver more useful feedback if we knew exactly what ways the current Necro is lacking. You do say that your goal is to give it multiple playstyles - I just don't know what the problem with the status quo is.
That said, I love all the Blurred Mortality interactions! That would seem to encourage a unique playstyle and also make for some heart-pounding, high-risk gameplay since you'd never really know how close to death you are.
That said, I love all the Blurred Mortality interactions! That would seem to encourage a unique playstyle and also make for some heart-pounding, high-risk gameplay since you'd never really know how close to death you are.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept…
I've played a little necromancer, and the randomness and strength (or lack thereof) of summons just makes it a pretty "meh" style of play. Which is a shame, because that turns the Necro into a cold/dark themed Archmage instead of a truly unique class.
A more experienced player could go into more details, I'm sure, but the best way to see what he means is to play it yourself. You'll likely find yourself gravitating towards being a LichBlaster, which is a great strategy, the main issue being it's also the best by a very significant margin.
A more experienced player could go into more details, I'm sure, but the best way to see what he means is to play it yourself. You'll likely find yourself gravitating towards being a LichBlaster, which is a great strategy, the main issue being it's also the best by a very significant margin.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept…
Good question. I have been at this a while so a lot of regular posters know about my criticisms but I don't mind laying them out again.
1. Skill distribution is a problem with Shadow Tunnel being a critical talent for any summoning Necro and it's inexplicably locked away in the Shades category with at least two skills that you might not need. The Will o' the Wisp is set in the Grave category… it's an organizational nightmare that produces a lot of wasted talents.
Undeath Link was the only Necro heal (until the animus category came about) and it's inexplicably in the third slot, forcing a player to spend at least 3 points in the Necrosis tree to get it… and it's terrible! It actually provides no real benefit and even with the EotD shield bonus, it provides a terrible shield at the expense of crippling your minions.
That, combined with the necessary investment in the Nightfall tree and the point investments necessary in the Advanced Minion tree has created a notable shortage of talent points, even for a hyper-specialized build. It's worse if you try and build the Necro in a hybrid style.
The Animus Hoarder skill also requires a big investment due to it not being front-loaded… a lot of skills have this problem. Not many one-point wonders for the Necro.
Then, there's Essence of the Dead, an almost great skill but all the way at the end of the Animus tree but it requires multiple talent points given that it isn't instant-cast.
Curse of the Meek is an immensely valuable skill that also requires a few points invested but the skill really shouldn't be necessary given that you shouldn't need a meat-shield/deflection tool plus a soul-farming tool given the animus tree and the fact that you have minions.
This is compounded if you want to go Lichform, and it really leaves you short if you want a hybrid build.
2. Minion Mastery… this skill actually makes your minions worse. They usually have less life (which hurts undeath link and undead explosion) and do less damage. Thus, your minions are mitigated to being little more than a weird nuke that you toss into a room in order to distract enemies and do a bit of damage while you blast away with other skills.
3. Lichform… given the point-sink cost, Lichform doesn't really justify itself. It provides no benefit for summoning and it's actually worse than the other undead classes and it costs 6 talent points to get (including 1 for Undeath Link).
If the Ice category wasn't tacked on, then the Lichform would be necessary. As it stands, you just don't need to spend the points and lose infusions for a mediocre nuking category that you don't really need. I really wish that Lichform provided a benefit to your minions in addition to nuking… I didn't actually address it but I do have some thoughts.
4. Lack of a generic. It just strikes me as disappointing to not have a unique generic for the Necromancer especially with so much potential synergy.
5. Lack of synergy… as I noted above, the skills are a bit scatter-shot leading to inefficient builds that can never quite reach their potential. Very little use is made of the potential synergy options which also makes the Necro a bit inelegant to play.
Then there's the Grave and Ice skills that damage your minions… makes Chill of the Tomb somewhat useless with minions. That's why I changed the damage to 50/50… yes, it nerfs the pure ice Necro a bit but the Necro is plenty strong.
6. Bad skills. Undeath Link, Undead Explosion, Sacrifice, Minion Mastery, Animus Hoarder, and Surge of Undeath are all really terrible skills for different reasons.
Sacrifice in particular is of dubious benefit, given the opportunity cost of souls and turns. For the cost, it should be awesome but it really only is with five points invested but how can that be justified? On higher difficulty settings, it's actually a critical skill but it narrows the viable classes to Shalore and requires finding a specific item with the Archmage's stone wall skill in order to be able to chain it together with other skills… also, a really tedious and boring style of play.
7. Play-style due to souls and Curse of the Meek. Necro's have a big soul resource issue that is addressed by spamming Curse of the Meek which is locked in the Shades tree so there's little option to avoid it, especially if you want to use the Animus tree or a lot of Summons. This is especially critical strategy against bosses.
This is a very irritating mechanic. Casting this silly skill and waiting around hoping to acquire more souls. My solution is the soul-recycling concept in combination with it thus making it an optional strategy to open the Shades tree. More so, it focuses the play-style on what the class is all about: Darkness and Summons.
On top of that, there's really only one viable build and it uses minions as a gimmick nuker, just tossing them into a room to buy time and do a bit of damage while you blast away with Nightfall and then Grave/Ice skills.
8. Lack of scouting. The Summoner has the ability to control a summon but why not give the Necro the chance to see through the eyes of its summons? That's why I added that bonus to Surge of Undeath. I hate the idea of having to use Arcane eye to inch around all day
9. In conclusion, it's just a frustrating class. It's almost really good but has so many skills that one might want to use but just can't due to the opportunity-cost or talent-point shortages.
This is made worse if you need an extra category point such as if you spend one on an escort category like Celestial/light. I find that especially irksome given that the Light category seems thematically inappropriate for a Necromancer and it shouldn't be a necessity. The perks of that category should be made available in another way and they can be!
My goal was to make multiple pure summoner builds viable, hybrid builds with multiple options viable, and keeping the pure blaster viable without overpowering the class.
1. Skill distribution is a problem with Shadow Tunnel being a critical talent for any summoning Necro and it's inexplicably locked away in the Shades category with at least two skills that you might not need. The Will o' the Wisp is set in the Grave category… it's an organizational nightmare that produces a lot of wasted talents.
Undeath Link was the only Necro heal (until the animus category came about) and it's inexplicably in the third slot, forcing a player to spend at least 3 points in the Necrosis tree to get it… and it's terrible! It actually provides no real benefit and even with the EotD shield bonus, it provides a terrible shield at the expense of crippling your minions.
That, combined with the necessary investment in the Nightfall tree and the point investments necessary in the Advanced Minion tree has created a notable shortage of talent points, even for a hyper-specialized build. It's worse if you try and build the Necro in a hybrid style.
The Animus Hoarder skill also requires a big investment due to it not being front-loaded… a lot of skills have this problem. Not many one-point wonders for the Necro.
Then, there's Essence of the Dead, an almost great skill but all the way at the end of the Animus tree but it requires multiple talent points given that it isn't instant-cast.
Curse of the Meek is an immensely valuable skill that also requires a few points invested but the skill really shouldn't be necessary given that you shouldn't need a meat-shield/deflection tool plus a soul-farming tool given the animus tree and the fact that you have minions.
This is compounded if you want to go Lichform, and it really leaves you short if you want a hybrid build.
2. Minion Mastery… this skill actually makes your minions worse. They usually have less life (which hurts undeath link and undead explosion) and do less damage. Thus, your minions are mitigated to being little more than a weird nuke that you toss into a room in order to distract enemies and do a bit of damage while you blast away with other skills.
3. Lichform… given the point-sink cost, Lichform doesn't really justify itself. It provides no benefit for summoning and it's actually worse than the other undead classes and it costs 6 talent points to get (including 1 for Undeath Link).
If the Ice category wasn't tacked on, then the Lichform would be necessary. As it stands, you just don't need to spend the points and lose infusions for a mediocre nuking category that you don't really need. I really wish that Lichform provided a benefit to your minions in addition to nuking… I didn't actually address it but I do have some thoughts.
4. Lack of a generic. It just strikes me as disappointing to not have a unique generic for the Necromancer especially with so much potential synergy.
5. Lack of synergy… as I noted above, the skills are a bit scatter-shot leading to inefficient builds that can never quite reach their potential. Very little use is made of the potential synergy options which also makes the Necro a bit inelegant to play.
Then there's the Grave and Ice skills that damage your minions… makes Chill of the Tomb somewhat useless with minions. That's why I changed the damage to 50/50… yes, it nerfs the pure ice Necro a bit but the Necro is plenty strong.
6. Bad skills. Undeath Link, Undead Explosion, Sacrifice, Minion Mastery, Animus Hoarder, and Surge of Undeath are all really terrible skills for different reasons.
Sacrifice in particular is of dubious benefit, given the opportunity cost of souls and turns. For the cost, it should be awesome but it really only is with five points invested but how can that be justified? On higher difficulty settings, it's actually a critical skill but it narrows the viable classes to Shalore and requires finding a specific item with the Archmage's stone wall skill in order to be able to chain it together with other skills… also, a really tedious and boring style of play.
7. Play-style due to souls and Curse of the Meek. Necro's have a big soul resource issue that is addressed by spamming Curse of the Meek which is locked in the Shades tree so there's little option to avoid it, especially if you want to use the Animus tree or a lot of Summons. This is especially critical strategy against bosses.
This is a very irritating mechanic. Casting this silly skill and waiting around hoping to acquire more souls. My solution is the soul-recycling concept in combination with it thus making it an optional strategy to open the Shades tree. More so, it focuses the play-style on what the class is all about: Darkness and Summons.
On top of that, there's really only one viable build and it uses minions as a gimmick nuker, just tossing them into a room to buy time and do a bit of damage while you blast away with Nightfall and then Grave/Ice skills.
8. Lack of scouting. The Summoner has the ability to control a summon but why not give the Necro the chance to see through the eyes of its summons? That's why I added that bonus to Surge of Undeath. I hate the idea of having to use Arcane eye to inch around all day
9. In conclusion, it's just a frustrating class. It's almost really good but has so many skills that one might want to use but just can't due to the opportunity-cost or talent-point shortages.
This is made worse if you need an extra category point such as if you spend one on an escort category like Celestial/light. I find that especially irksome given that the Light category seems thematically inappropriate for a Necromancer and it shouldn't be a necessity. The perks of that category should be made available in another way and they can be!
My goal was to make multiple pure summoner builds viable, hybrid builds with multiple options viable, and keeping the pure blaster viable without overpowering the class.
Last edited by Delmuir on Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
So, I made a major change that I'd discussed before but I had an "ah ha" moment and I think I found the right balance.
It's a damage/heal sharing effect with Undeath Link that has great synergy with Vampiric Gift, Consume Soul, Sacrifice, and EotD.
To off-set the loss of that emergency heal, I made some changes to Sacrifice… I made it targetable and added to different functions: a small damage shield or a direct heal depending on whether you targeted a basic or advanced minion.
I think this'll produce a really, really cool play-style potential and some nifty combo-builds. As of now, damage-sharing would be a unique feature to the Necromancer and would finally give it an identity.
It also works really, really well with my proposed generic and the under 0 life bonuses (as damage sharing would make you more resistant to single hits but you'd still be normally affect by AoE damage).
It's a damage/heal sharing effect with Undeath Link that has great synergy with Vampiric Gift, Consume Soul, Sacrifice, and EotD.
To off-set the loss of that emergency heal, I made some changes to Sacrifice… I made it targetable and added to different functions: a small damage shield or a direct heal depending on whether you targeted a basic or advanced minion.
I think this'll produce a really, really cool play-style potential and some nifty combo-builds. As of now, damage-sharing would be a unique feature to the Necromancer and would finally give it an identity.
It also works really, really well with my proposed generic and the under 0 life bonuses (as damage sharing would make you more resistant to single hits but you'd still be normally affect by AoE damage).
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
Summon Greater Undead-how are the stats for the greater undead worked out? I do think it's a good idea to move this to a seperate skill (guarantees you better minions, let's you early game a blaster then transition to minions while saving four points off of regular minions), but part of the issue with the "more powerful" minions is that I need to use scare quotes with more powerful. In the current game, the advanced minions often end up being weaker than ordinary minions, since ordinary minions are monsters that aren't supposed to be overly strong. Cannon fodder, if high level and renewable cannon fodder. However, the advanced minions are usually elite or better, so being summoned as ordinary monsters hurts them something fierce.
More than that, while you do offer some bonuses for dealing with friendly fire, it's still a pretty big issue. Skeleton mages, vampires of all kinds, liches, they'll all hurt your other minions. This is actually amplified by your change to Undead Explosion-while it's pretty cool conceptually, in practice this will hurt minion masters very badly. One explosion will not just hurt your other minions, but might make them chain react and leave you devoid of any meat/bone shields between you and your foes.
The obvious solution here is to make Aura Mastery (with the Dark Empathy effect) apply to minions too, but I don't mind the concept of a Necromancer coldly sacrificing his minions to get the dirty work done. Or even just for giggles. Perhaps there could be some kind of enrage effect on friendly fire, so getting hit makes the injured minion temporarily stronger? And for Undead Explosion, while the enemy explosion is just plain cool, for minions I think it might make sense to give them a several turn "Primed" (de)buff. What this would do is cause them to explode only if you damage them, letting you choose what extra minions you want going boom.
That being said, great work on the rest of the class, and having a summoner with friendly fire is a dificult thing to make work. God knows how little the Rimebark gets used, and it's for that exact reason. And going the other way would turn all your best minions into Hydras-barking powerful, but useless as soon as another minion gets involved. Hope my ideas help you refine this further.
More than that, while you do offer some bonuses for dealing with friendly fire, it's still a pretty big issue. Skeleton mages, vampires of all kinds, liches, they'll all hurt your other minions. This is actually amplified by your change to Undead Explosion-while it's pretty cool conceptually, in practice this will hurt minion masters very badly. One explosion will not just hurt your other minions, but might make them chain react and leave you devoid of any meat/bone shields between you and your foes.
The obvious solution here is to make Aura Mastery (with the Dark Empathy effect) apply to minions too, but I don't mind the concept of a Necromancer coldly sacrificing his minions to get the dirty work done. Or even just for giggles. Perhaps there could be some kind of enrage effect on friendly fire, so getting hit makes the injured minion temporarily stronger? And for Undead Explosion, while the enemy explosion is just plain cool, for minions I think it might make sense to give them a several turn "Primed" (de)buff. What this would do is cause them to explode only if you damage them, letting you choose what extra minions you want going boom.
That being said, great work on the rest of the class, and having a summoner with friendly fire is a dificult thing to make work. God knows how little the Rimebark gets used, and it's for that exact reason. And going the other way would turn all your best minions into Hydras-barking powerful, but useless as soon as another minion gets involved. Hope my ideas help you refine this further.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
I assume that the stats for the Greater Minions would be calculated just as they are now.
Now, friendly fire… yeah, it's a problem and one I forgot to address with Undead Explosion initially, which is hilarious as your point was exactly why I hated that skill in the first place. Mental lapse, ha ha but that's why I went back and tweaked Undeath Link and Sacrifice.
My proposed solution is Undeath Link's damage sharing effect.
First off, Dark empathy prevents your minions from hurting you, which is good. However, it doesn't prevent minion-on-minion damage. I was initially going to suggest a change to the "Through the Crowd" prodigy but I backed off that.
So, how to fix the problem? Well, damage sharing combined with maintenance healing.
Thus, if you want to use Undead Explosion and you have two, near-death minions left then no problem. However, if you want to use it in a crowd then I'd suggest casting Undeath Link first.
This works really well in combination with a damage shield and the escort-acquired Bathe in Light or Ghoul's Retch and any direct heal.
In effect, damage sharing should take priority in the hierarchy of effects. If you destroy a minion with Undead Explosion and it does 400 damage and you have 6 minions left. let's also assume that it hits 4 minions (and you're immune from Dark Empathy so it doesn't count). That means 1600/7 (7 instead of 6 as you count for damage sharing even if you're immune) which is 228.5, rounded up to 229. Thus, each minion takes 229 instead of 400 damage.
You can then follow that up with a direct heal and your minions themselves might use retch, etc. Now, that's a worst-case scenario of using Undead Explosion in a crowd of your own minions. If say, only one minion was around, then the situation is vastly improved and they would only take about 58 damage per. Then, with a heal or Vampiric Gifts, they might walk out without any noticeable damage at all.
If you see the chain-reaction effect, it only takes hold if the enemies are below 20% life. It can also be fixed by healing above it. Thus, you can injure but then heal your own minions.
Think about that with the Vampiric Gifts skill. All of the healing would be shared amongst your minions, including the damage from Undead Explosion. You deal 400 on a crowd… if the skill triggers 3 times and you recover 25% of life then that's 300 life immediately distributed to your minions at 50 a pop.
Thus, the total damage your minions will absorb is only 179, less than half of what they would normally absorb.
Then, you have the Generic options… with Undeath Link, the 1 turn immunity from Harvest would apply to your minions as well. So would the heal from Chance of Life.
It's not a damage-free solution but I think it's a pretty good one.
Now, friendly fire… yeah, it's a problem and one I forgot to address with Undead Explosion initially, which is hilarious as your point was exactly why I hated that skill in the first place. Mental lapse, ha ha but that's why I went back and tweaked Undeath Link and Sacrifice.
My proposed solution is Undeath Link's damage sharing effect.
First off, Dark empathy prevents your minions from hurting you, which is good. However, it doesn't prevent minion-on-minion damage. I was initially going to suggest a change to the "Through the Crowd" prodigy but I backed off that.
So, how to fix the problem? Well, damage sharing combined with maintenance healing.
Thus, if you want to use Undead Explosion and you have two, near-death minions left then no problem. However, if you want to use it in a crowd then I'd suggest casting Undeath Link first.
This works really well in combination with a damage shield and the escort-acquired Bathe in Light or Ghoul's Retch and any direct heal.
In effect, damage sharing should take priority in the hierarchy of effects. If you destroy a minion with Undead Explosion and it does 400 damage and you have 6 minions left. let's also assume that it hits 4 minions (and you're immune from Dark Empathy so it doesn't count). That means 1600/7 (7 instead of 6 as you count for damage sharing even if you're immune) which is 228.5, rounded up to 229. Thus, each minion takes 229 instead of 400 damage.
You can then follow that up with a direct heal and your minions themselves might use retch, etc. Now, that's a worst-case scenario of using Undead Explosion in a crowd of your own minions. If say, only one minion was around, then the situation is vastly improved and they would only take about 58 damage per. Then, with a heal or Vampiric Gifts, they might walk out without any noticeable damage at all.
If you see the chain-reaction effect, it only takes hold if the enemies are below 20% life. It can also be fixed by healing above it. Thus, you can injure but then heal your own minions.
Think about that with the Vampiric Gifts skill. All of the healing would be shared amongst your minions, including the damage from Undead Explosion. You deal 400 on a crowd… if the skill triggers 3 times and you recover 25% of life then that's 300 life immediately distributed to your minions at 50 a pop.
Thus, the total damage your minions will absorb is only 179, less than half of what they would normally absorb.
Then, you have the Generic options… with Undeath Link, the 1 turn immunity from Harvest would apply to your minions as well. So would the heal from Chance of Life.
It's not a damage-free solution but I think it's a pretty good one.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
Ooh, synergies. Synergies are very good.
With that explanation for how it should work in game, it seems appropiate as it is now. The trick is seeing whether or not it holds up in game. It's an excellent plan, but plans only work well until they're put into action.
The only issue I have is rather limited healing. That's something that always bothered me about Necromancer, since there's no built in way to maintain minions. And in this build, you'll have at most two heals by default. Healing Infusions (unavailable to Undead), Retch (unavailable to anyone but Ghouls or finding a rare ego), and Consume Soul. Vampiric Gifts will help, but the limited chance and limited percentage of healing gained make it rather unreliable. Healing Light and Bathe In Light (which is going to be freaking awesome with Undeath Link) are the main healing skills you can get, but those rely on an Anorithil escort being generated, and an Anorithil escort surviving. Not something I want to be a requirement for a minion build, and Consume Soul is not a good replacement. Souls are going to be a very valuable resource for minion masters, so using them on healing is wasteful.
That being said, I'm not sure how to fix this. In general, though, I think a .5 HP per turn regen effect could exist on undead inside your aura. It won't matter in most fights outside of the earliest of the early game, but it will mean you can heal minions to full simply by resting instead of wasting time with Bathe In Light if you're lucky, or wasting a ton of time if you're unlucky and have to rely on using Undeath Link, Healing Infusion (no Consume Soul, unless you want to be caught without any minions), and resting till the CD finishes. Of course, this would also mean tying your rest time to your minions' HP, not just your own resources, but that's a problem for those smart enough to be able to code.
With that explanation for how it should work in game, it seems appropiate as it is now. The trick is seeing whether or not it holds up in game. It's an excellent plan, but plans only work well until they're put into action.
The only issue I have is rather limited healing. That's something that always bothered me about Necromancer, since there's no built in way to maintain minions. And in this build, you'll have at most two heals by default. Healing Infusions (unavailable to Undead), Retch (unavailable to anyone but Ghouls or finding a rare ego), and Consume Soul. Vampiric Gifts will help, but the limited chance and limited percentage of healing gained make it rather unreliable. Healing Light and Bathe In Light (which is going to be freaking awesome with Undeath Link) are the main healing skills you can get, but those rely on an Anorithil escort being generated, and an Anorithil escort surviving. Not something I want to be a requirement for a minion build, and Consume Soul is not a good replacement. Souls are going to be a very valuable resource for minion masters, so using them on healing is wasteful.
That being said, I'm not sure how to fix this. In general, though, I think a .5 HP per turn regen effect could exist on undead inside your aura. It won't matter in most fights outside of the earliest of the early game, but it will mean you can heal minions to full simply by resting instead of wasting time with Bathe In Light if you're lucky, or wasting a ton of time if you're unlucky and have to rely on using Undeath Link, Healing Infusion (no Consume Soul, unless you want to be caught without any minions), and resting till the CD finishes. Of course, this would also mean tying your rest time to your minions' HP, not just your own resources, but that's a problem for those smart enough to be able to code.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
Don't forget about the Sacrifice skill which, in desperate times, can be used as a heal. You can also heal your minions with Shadow Tunnel, should you need to and that can be shared as well. I also intend to buff Consume Soul a bit, maybe 25% to compensate for removing the bonus from EotD.
Also, there are times when your minions will use retch or vampires will use drain-like skills. If Undeath Link is active, all of that is shared.
In fact, Undeath Link can always be made a sustain but I actually like it as an active given that you can be pretty short on mana with costly sustains as it is.
Of course, there are times when you don't have Undeath Link active and those times you'll be relying on Chance of Life primarily, which can also share.
Now, if I've done this correctly, the limited healing is deliberate. This class should have defensive capabilities on par with the Oozemancer except with more, and better, offensive weapons. That's an OP class if there ever was one… thus, the limitations is healing. It's also thematic in a sense. Necromancers shouldn't be good at healing as they deal with death.
You also shouldn't NEED healing quite as much and if you stumble across the Bathe of Light category or spend a prodigy on it then you solve many of your healing issues and you have a class that can maybe excel in the higher difficulty levels, which is my goal.
If you want to build a minion-free build then that's cool but you'll definitely be using two damage shields and Vampiric Gifts because otherwise, you'll be very short on survivability. With minions, it's better...
Also, there are times when your minions will use retch or vampires will use drain-like skills. If Undeath Link is active, all of that is shared.
In fact, Undeath Link can always be made a sustain but I actually like it as an active given that you can be pretty short on mana with costly sustains as it is.
Of course, there are times when you don't have Undeath Link active and those times you'll be relying on Chance of Life primarily, which can also share.
Now, if I've done this correctly, the limited healing is deliberate. This class should have defensive capabilities on par with the Oozemancer except with more, and better, offensive weapons. That's an OP class if there ever was one… thus, the limitations is healing. It's also thematic in a sense. Necromancers shouldn't be good at healing as they deal with death.
You also shouldn't NEED healing quite as much and if you stumble across the Bathe of Light category or spend a prodigy on it then you solve many of your healing issues and you have a class that can maybe excel in the higher difficulty levels, which is my goal.
If you want to build a minion-free build then that's cool but you'll definitely be using two damage shields and Vampiric Gifts because otherwise, you'll be very short on survivability. With minions, it's better...
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
Was going off the vanilla Sacrifice skill. Missed the heal there, though that shares the Consume Soul issue of, well, consuming souls. Good cost for a heal in this build, though.
Shadow Tunnel does not offer any healing, unless I'm seriously missing something. It just gives evasion and teleports.
Though since you mention Light, it should be seen how they play together. A (slightly weaker) Oozemancer with extra offense and less healing isn't a bad balancing goal, but it should be noted no escort or otherwise unlockable category can seriously add offense to an Oozemancer. There's little bits here or there, but not much. Whereas the Light (and Harmony) trees are pretty good at healing. While this class must be good without any escort categories (requiring Harmony or Vile Life to truly shine is acceptable, though, since they're guaranteed), care should be taken to ensure that escort categories do not overpower the class. If the Necromancer is actually as powerful as an Oozemancer, with healing traded for offense, getting Light might turn them into Oozemancer+. And Oozemancers are already deserving of a nerfhammer.
Shadow Tunnel does not offer any healing, unless I'm seriously missing something. It just gives evasion and teleports.
Though since you mention Light, it should be seen how they play together. A (slightly weaker) Oozemancer with extra offense and less healing isn't a bad balancing goal, but it should be noted no escort or otherwise unlockable category can seriously add offense to an Oozemancer. There's little bits here or there, but not much. Whereas the Light (and Harmony) trees are pretty good at healing. While this class must be good without any escort categories (requiring Harmony or Vile Life to truly shine is acceptable, though, since they're guaranteed), care should be taken to ensure that escort categories do not overpower the class. If the Necromancer is actually as powerful as an Oozemancer, with healing traded for offense, getting Light might turn them into Oozemancer+. And Oozemancers are already deserving of a nerfhammer.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
Oozemancers already got nerfed… this IS their weaker version, ha ha.
Shadow Tunnel has a 30% heal for your minions when used with Essence of the Dead (EotD). That can also apply with Undeath Link.
The Sacrifice skill wouldn't cost a soul… just the mana. Of course, that's not counting the soul cost of having summoned minions in the first place.
So my thought on this is simple:
1. Non-undead races can use infusions… thus, healing isn't really a problem although they would be included in the Undeath Link sharing effect.
2. Undead… ghouls and skeletons already have a heal and the ghoul's retch in particular has awesome synergy with the Necromancer.
3. Lichform… this is where things get dodgy. This is the only build that really suffers from a problem of having a shortage of healing and for that build, I don't mind them having to either play carefully or hope for Celestial/Light.
Remember, you can use a prodigy to get a slightly stronger Light category. Given that the Necro doesn't really need both prodigies, I don't mind this situation.
I also want to point out synergy-combos:
You enter a battle, use your skills, etc., and are sitting at 10% of max life after a huge hit and you don't have an available heal, what do you do? I would suggest using the Harvest skill as that 1 turn of invincibility combined with the status-effect removal is HUGE. It can also, if you have Will to Power active as a sustain, grants you a speed bonus that might let you get out of a dodgy situation.
I believe that this is a strong build and yes, it might be a little weak on reliable healing but if it had more reliable healing, it'd be too strong.
Of course, if you pickup Light early and everything is perfect then yeah, you'll have a really strong build that might cruise… I highly suggest playing Nightmare then, ha ha.
Shadow Tunnel has a 30% heal for your minions when used with Essence of the Dead (EotD). That can also apply with Undeath Link.
The Sacrifice skill wouldn't cost a soul… just the mana. Of course, that's not counting the soul cost of having summoned minions in the first place.
So my thought on this is simple:
1. Non-undead races can use infusions… thus, healing isn't really a problem although they would be included in the Undeath Link sharing effect.
2. Undead… ghouls and skeletons already have a heal and the ghoul's retch in particular has awesome synergy with the Necromancer.
3. Lichform… this is where things get dodgy. This is the only build that really suffers from a problem of having a shortage of healing and for that build, I don't mind them having to either play carefully or hope for Celestial/Light.
Remember, you can use a prodigy to get a slightly stronger Light category. Given that the Necro doesn't really need both prodigies, I don't mind this situation.
I also want to point out synergy-combos:
You enter a battle, use your skills, etc., and are sitting at 10% of max life after a huge hit and you don't have an available heal, what do you do? I would suggest using the Harvest skill as that 1 turn of invincibility combined with the status-effect removal is HUGE. It can also, if you have Will to Power active as a sustain, grants you a speed bonus that might let you get out of a dodgy situation.
I believe that this is a strong build and yes, it might be a little weak on reliable healing but if it had more reliable healing, it'd be too strong.
Of course, if you pickup Light early and everything is perfect then yeah, you'll have a really strong build that might cruise… I highly suggest playing Nightmare then, ha ha.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
And that's what I get for talking so much about a class I never got far with.
My question is, does Undeath link transfer regeneration as well? If it does not, then non-undead races do not actually have a reliable heal for their minions, since Healing Infusions are incredibly weak-usually not worth the time it takes to cast them, and certainly not worth it if the healing is divided over so many targets. (I believe I found a Healing Infusion that scaled with Strength, worth about 100 HP... At level 50, on a Sun Paladin Ghoul with maxed Strength and Ghoul racial talent.)
That's actually exactly what I meant with Sacrifice. It doesn't cost a soul itself, but it turns a soul that was already used for combat into HP.
Finally, considering the issue I just brought up... I believe I'm done for the moment with the nitpicking. I want to see Undeath Link clarified and I'm sure a few more will pop up that should be more well defined, but whether the answer to my question is yes or no the Newcromancers get my seal of approval, whatever that might be worth from someone who's beaten the game only once.
Awesome job, Delmuir.
My question is, does Undeath link transfer regeneration as well? If it does not, then non-undead races do not actually have a reliable heal for their minions, since Healing Infusions are incredibly weak-usually not worth the time it takes to cast them, and certainly not worth it if the healing is divided over so many targets. (I believe I found a Healing Infusion that scaled with Strength, worth about 100 HP... At level 50, on a Sun Paladin Ghoul with maxed Strength and Ghoul racial talent.)
That's actually exactly what I meant with Sacrifice. It doesn't cost a soul itself, but it turns a soul that was already used for combat into HP.
Finally, considering the issue I just brought up... I believe I'm done for the moment with the nitpicking. I want to see Undeath Link clarified and I'm sure a few more will pop up that should be more well defined, but whether the answer to my question is yes or no the Newcromancers get my seal of approval, whatever that might be worth from someone who's beaten the game only once.
Awesome job, Delmuir.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Okay, my full Necro concept… updated!
Yeah… reliable healing for the minions is not something that this class really has going for it, ha ha.
I can think of four okay solutions… I'm not sure what would work best:
1. Make Surge of Undeath a pure regen for undead and take the combat bonuses and make them an EotD bonus.
2. Add a resting regen rate to your minions.
3. Make the life-drain effect from Necrosis provide an equal heal to you and your minions kind of like Vitality from the conditioning category.
4. Change the combat priorities of your Ghouls such that they use retch more often, thus healing your minions.
Only the first two would work effectively outside of battle and only the first would be reliable. I don't know… I'd probably want to play with it a bit to see if it's a problem.
As it stands now, I'm okay with most minions not being able to heal but I'd be pretty annoyed losing a Runed Bone Golem or Lich. I do wish this was in effect so that I could toy with it.
I can think of four okay solutions… I'm not sure what would work best:
1. Make Surge of Undeath a pure regen for undead and take the combat bonuses and make them an EotD bonus.
2. Add a resting regen rate to your minions.
3. Make the life-drain effect from Necrosis provide an equal heal to you and your minions kind of like Vitality from the conditioning category.
4. Change the combat priorities of your Ghouls such that they use retch more often, thus healing your minions.
Only the first two would work effectively outside of battle and only the first would be reliable. I don't know… I'd probably want to play with it a bit to see if it's a problem.
As it stands now, I'm okay with most minions not being able to heal but I'd be pretty annoyed losing a Runed Bone Golem or Lich. I do wish this was in effect so that I could toy with it.