How To Make Stats More Interesting

[Red]

Because frankly, I have no idea. This is, I believe, the third thread to be inspired by the Constitution Buff thread, but this honestly needs its own space.

Basically, as it stands now, the vast majority of classes have incredibly simple stat point usage. All three in your main stat, or two in the main and one in your secondary. Extra points due to level stat cap go into your secondary. A few classes, like Arcane Blade, have more interesting options, but by and large stat points could be switched to automatic gains in the appropiate stats and no one would blink in half their playthroughs.

Delmuir suggested that stats could give bonuses for points above 60, resist cap for Constitution, allresist for Magic, movement speed for Strength, etc., but that really only affects end game choices. Is there anyone with an idea of how to make stat points more meaningful throughout the entire game?

[Faeryan]

In the other thread I read that some talents should be incorporated into stats. Now I read that stats could be distributed automatically.

Putting those two together why even have the whole level up screen? Dungeons could reward a set amount of money / progress points instead of random loot with which you could buy your favourite artifacts from the list of items.

All this would fit well into the trend of optimal game play. We don't want to confuse players by having them decide on stuff about their characters.

[Red]

Faeryn, that's the problem I have. As it stands now, for most classes stats could be distributed automatically and most builds wouldn't notice or care.

My question is, how do we change that? What changes can be made to stats so not every build uses the same ones? Currently, the class section of the level up screen always matters. The generic section usually does. But the stat section is always the same, and I want to figure out how to make it varied, how to encourage plenty of different builds with different stats. I'm just having trouble figuring out exactly to do it.

[Fhtagn]

But that is simply not true. At least for me it is not. I tend to decide at each level where I put my points, rather than following some level-up scheme. Even when playing similar builds of the same class, how I spend my attribute poinst on level-up might vary depending on loot, dungeon order and gut feeling. I sometimes even keep points because I do not yet know where I will need or want them.

That does not mean that increasing diversity is a bad idea, however.
To alleviate both the generics "problem" and the attribute one, how about introducing new generic categories for most if not all classes that depend on attributes the class might not usually want to use? Say, create a 'Force of Will' generic category that influences resistance to mental effects, intimidates enemies and has a talent that regenerates stamina, all based on Willpower? Or a 'Magical Exposure' category that is based on magic and offers resistances, a small bonus to weapon damage based on magic and some bonus related to charms?

I do not think changing the stats themselves much (slight changes/rebalancing should be fine) is a good idea. It makes getting into the game as a new player harder, changes fundamental aspects of the game, which might have huge consequences and it would also require significant item rebalancing.

[Kuroto]

Hey Red, I've seen you discussing this in a few places now on the forums. Each time I see it, honestly the biggest question in my mind is "Is this actually needed?"

As it stands, this game has some of the most complex character development and customization I've seen in any game, which was what drew me to it in the first place. That being said, I don't think that EVERY part of this game has to add complexity just for complexity's sake. As of right now, stats serve their purpose in gating builds for items, talents, and prodigies, as well as providing a nice passive benefit to your character as well. They definitely have their impact on builds, and more specifically build orders at higher levels of play. I think making them more complex than they are really doesn't serve too much of a purpose in improving the game when we already have so much to choose from on each playthrough, especially with there being little to no lategame for a character. I just feel overall that we already have enough variety in character options right now that adding more complexity to stats isn't quite the right way to improve the game.

That being said, I really do like Fhtagn's suggestion about adding more generic category options that are reliant on stats different from your main stats. That would add more complexity to stat choices without complicating stats themselves.

[Lyoncet]

FWIW, I think it's fine to have some classes stick to just a few stats and some classes that can invest widely. I love tooling around with Arcane Blade builds and seeing where I can get with different stat distributions. At the same time, I'm OK with never putting a point into dexterity as an Archmage. I'm also pretty much OK with stats being less interesting than talents. Stats are just that – stats. They're the physical underlay of your character, and I think it's OK that they're not very flashy.

That's not to say they couldn't be improved upon, but if there's a problem with stats, I don't think it's that they're not interesting.

[grayswandir]

I think the best way to make stats more interesting is to make more talents rely on them. Now, this is a question of degree, but I'd like to see more talents use wildly off-base stats for extra effects. Like what if shield pummel got extra stun duration based on cunning, or vitality boosted how much spell save you got from the magic stat? If every class had a few talents that had some extra scaling with each stat, then we could let your choice in stats influence your playstyle more heavily.

Note that I'm specifically talking about having these off-stats increase these talents - I don't want the talent, as is, to be penalized for not having it.

[Doctornull]

I think the best way to make stats more interesting is to make more talents rely on them. Now, this is a question of degree, but I'd like to see more talents use wildly off-base stats for extra effects. Like what if shield pummel got extra stun duration based on cunning, or vitality boosted how much spell save you got from the magic stat? If every class had a few talents that had some extra scaling with each stat, then we could let your choice in stats influence your playstyle more heavily.

Note that I'm specifically talking about having these off-stats increase these talents - I don't want the talent, as is, to be penalized for not having it.

That's a really neat idea which could happen independently of any changes to stats themselves.

Let's discuss it here: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=42920

[Red]

I see I am ridiculously outnumered. I also see that most of you have a good point, so I'm going to go ahead and say I disagree with the OP now.

[Atarlost]

I'm not sure that's really a separate topic. Part of what makes stats interesting or boring is what you can do with them.

For instance dex is interesting to bulwarks and paladins because it can be converted into crit chance through a couple skills and into crit mult through the excess accuracy bonus for swords. Strength is interesting to wyrmics because breaths scale off it.

Currently I'd say that dex, cunning, and will have some inherent interest. Dex boosts accuracy and excess accuracy rolls over into different things for different weapons. Cunning boosts crits and crits are somewhat interesting. Will effects resource bars and determines how long you can use activated talents for.

Power is interesting for what it scales. Physical power mostly just scales damage and is kind of dull (and also available off masteries to make the diminishing returns more of a problem). Mental powers, wild gifts, and spells tend to be more interesting and mindpower and spellpower are correspondingly more interesting, but only to the classes that use them.

You could try to give everything a mechanic as interesting as excess accuracy bonuses are to dexterity, but I expect you'd fail. Too many interesting mechanics are already tied up in talents to make all stats interesting independent of talent interactions without reworking the game with less emphasis on talents.

[Lyoncet]

I see I am ridiculously outnumered. I also see that most of you have a good point, so I'm going to go ahead and say I disagree with the OP now.

You may consider yourself a noob, but I consider you a scholar and a gentleperson.

[Nagyhal]

Power is interesting for what it scales. Physical power mostly just scales damage and is kind of dull (and also available off masteries to make the diminishing returns more of a problem). Mental powers, wild gifts, and spells tend to be more interesting and mindpower and spellpower are correspondingly more interesting, but only to the classes that use them.

You're right that physical power is the least interesting power, and consequently Strength is cheapened... That's an interesting point. Hold that thought.

[Fhtagn]

You may consider yourself a noob, but I consider you a scholar and a gentleperson.

Signed.

On an unrelated note:

You're right that physical power is the least interesting power, and consequently Strength is cheapened... That's an interesting point. Hold that thought.

That is a bit shortsighted. In a way, it is obviously true, as physical power is the least interesting power. However, Strength is not cheapened by that.
Magic influences Spellpower, but does not directly influence damage. Strength increases Physical Power, and is also factored directly into physical damage in most cases, thus influencing physical damage twice.
That does not sound cheap to me.

[Strongpoint]

What OP wants to achieve? Make it so that maxing magic(strength, dexterity) may be not optimal for archmage (Berserker, Archer)? You need a situation or skill build when some stat 40, magic 20 will be better than 40 magic , 20 some stat for archmage. That sounds wrong

[Red]

Well, the OP wasn't thinking everything through. As many people have brought up, a big part of stats is not neccessarily what they are when you're level 50, but how you get them there. Any given Archmage will most likely have 60 magic by level 50, but there's a big difference between an Archmage who dumps 3 points into magic every level, 2 in magic and 1 in willpower, and 1 each in magic, willpower, and cunning.

And do remember physical power also determines how well you inflict status debuffs and chance of cross-tiering them with physical effects. The only two main differences between physical power and spell/mindpower is that spell/mindpower have many, many more utility abilities scaling off them, while physical power has none that I know about. The other difference is physical power is two words and no other power is.

Lastly, thank you Fhtagn. That's kind of you to agree with Lyoncet.