Anorithil ideas

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0player
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Re: Anorithil ideas

#16 Post by 0player »

Bormoth wrote:As for mine, idea you could leave at least detailed feedback, and I could find what you don't like conceptually. Numbers may change, same for some OP concept may go. And I don't like last ability myself so I keep it as placeholder, though 9 turns to setup for max damage to die yourself is not really short and yo teleport it with you .
As someone aptly put it, your idea is basically Wildfire for Anorithils, over-focusing on light damage, and even bending another tree (Chants) to its will.
I don't feel like Anorithils is the class where you should choose between light and dark, it's counter-thematic. We have Archmages for single-element builds.
(Besides, any light build sooner or later runs into the problem of radiant horrors.)
Flare also feels really odd.

Tried to implement the idea of sun/moons/stars into the trees; subsequently adjusted Twilight, removed Tidings and moved Eclipse to be a locked tree.
Sunlight is still quite odd, Bormoth is right on that note, so I'm happy to take suggestions.
I borrowed the idea of Hymn of the Moon for Star Fury's Star Fall, mainly because I feel that it's too powerful for a hymn anyway, but also because it's a good damage ability.
Twilight now grants bonuses based on energy levels, and can be instantly used to generate 10 Energy of whichever you have lower, on a high cooldown.
I tried to outline costs/conversion rates for most talents, but am not sure of them. Any help is welcome.
Doc link, just in case: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q9I ... U-S_A/edit

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#17 Post by Bormoth »

Thanks for feedback.
Though it seems we understand and Anorithils differently. You think it as resource management class.(Btw for your resource mangement to work you need strong enough defenses for your class to survive turn or 2 while you prepping to turn the tide. While I look it like tanky high sustain class, focusing more on staying alive while he dishes damage passively inserting spell or 2 when he can. The way anorithil currently is.(circles, chants,hymns, all light talents, mindblast, darkest light, corona all of them this talents work around letting you do less and watch enemies slowly die in room with you.
That's why I think your Idea is not exactly aorithil. I like it's gimmikness don't get me wrong but it is only fun to run on normal. It would be solid and interesting celestial corruptor to play(well if it would be not about power corruptor takes this niche) duality of resources may serve for interesting ideas.

(maybe add some weaker effects if conditions are not met?)
About radiant horrors Same goes fire magic and faeros, lighiting magic and lighting elementals, umbral horrors for darkness, worm that walks and blight worms for blight. Resistance penetration is what is solves this issues to some extent, and my talents have it.(btw what about Umbral horror with 400% darkness resistance 200% light resistance)

First focusing I think is more question of surviving in Tome there are dual element damage boosts, but they are lower then single and resistance penetrations are rare and in low numbers(to allow spread). The only multielemental would work if you have both elements in same stronger then usual spell to make dual bonuses better, or make another element attractive in terms of it's effects.(Hmm maybe I should turn patches left from darkness blast to shadow flame patches and Allow sticky light attract them too.)

I tried to make what you say. You may focus dark, you may focus light and go for Elemental surge or Starfurry endless woes for extra turn. Also my suggested tree lacks for any solid disables you get with other talent like starfall, mind blast worm hole, shadow simulacrum, so in fact it promotes usage of other talents. Or you may play hybrid, picking some abilities From sunlight and Irradiation and other talents.
Flare is indeed bit odd, but it is fits theme giving small extra layer of protection and Playing with vision(Like that darkness demons),
And first skill is true it is somewhat similar to wildfire. Wildfire doesn't used by fire skills, except cleansing flames, while Irradiation uses more to synergize with other skills.(it more came from seeing searing light and saying it is good skill, if mobs not run out of it. So I made it harder to do. and everything else layered neatly except last skill which is more of a joke now, maybe I would be able to make it work, but for now it is just meh imo.)

Could we move farther discussion of my skills to thishttp://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 90#p188590 thread. Feels kinda bad every time I write argument. It is as if I'm spamming your thread. Not saying that your idea is interesting for class you make. And other readers may not really understand what we are arguing about.

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#18 Post by 0player »

Bormoth wrote:Though it seems we understand and Anorithils differently. You think it as resource management class.(Btw for your resource mangement to work you need strong enough defenses for your class to survive turn or 2 while you prepping to turn the tide. While I look it like tanky high sustain class, focusing more on staying alive while he dishes damage passively inserting spell or 2 when he can. The way anorithil currently is.(circles, chants,hymns, all light talents, mindblast, darkest light, corona all of them this talents work around letting you do less and watch enemies slowly die in room with you.
I... don't really see the contradiction here. Resource management classes tend to like drawn-out fights, you even said it yourself. No one advocates the removal of Chants, Hymns, Circles or Glyphs, although grayswandir talked about adjusting Glyphs here and there.

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#19 Post by Bormoth »

Now to your abilities feedback:
Searing light -- Better now it is trap(Well maybe undisarmable) though still same weakness as old and current enemies not dumb enough to stay inside lighted area. Light well does this job better Btw your old version is good example of good conditional ability, just bonus was too weak. Maybe make damaged target recieve effect damaging in 1 aoe dot. And make it trap if 50% or more energy draining to 50%, or in order to apply effect same condition dunno, Just one tile ground dot looks poorly unless you have ways to hold something on it.
sun's fury -- Looks useless you lose chant just for extra damage There is no big reason to top your energy.
Focused light-- looks too detrimental for you. I'm about energy costs to effect(You are just asking for overflow(Maybe if you have FlipCircles inherent ability to swap energies hen it is way to squeeze.
Summerstrike too general. What is duration, range or centered, disarm not really useful 1 or 5 turns later, if if something beating you now, even though it has small usage, but until someone rushes, blindsides, shadowstrikes, e.t.c. you. if you want finisher moves make something that locks skill or life statuses, or lowers some stats, or makes in some way enemies vulnurable.
Another way to strap it to onging effect. For example (Disarms each turn your positive energy not max. Or disarms each torn until your positive energy reaches max) More useful.
Lunacy extremely strong for lvl 1 ability. Yes confusioon chance is low at first. Mind damage doesn't fit anorithils already too large spread in damge type,make it twilight (Darkness light damage)
Crescent Dunno what to think looks like weaker corona(that one triggers alot). But it is aoe on other hand, though hard to control.
False light Looks fun to play with it. has no cost written.
Winter storm Interesting but again mind damage is bad for anorithils for one more reason it can be partially resisted with mind saves, and your mind power is low. No cost written.(Thought similar effect to summer strike but this makes quite interesting play.
Twilight looks like taken from Empyreal addon similar effects, different stats.Would be good though if it was in fact drained resources at this point would be much better for build diversity.
Balance just hard to control skill make it direction target-able to lift at least fact that critical enemies appear in wrong half.
Even then considering unstable gameplay, tide may change and you don't have correct spells to use.(idea to make it reduce resists to element you used before this spell dunno.
Celestial affinity nothing to say looks generic, but somewhat useful.
Eclipse all talents too hard to use. Essential for not topping energies too fast, but still usable not too often. Anyway feedback.
Penumbra -- Is generally bad totality: no damage penetration, when you need refresh at current state you would have at least one resource bar >50% most likely. Hardly you would ever be able to use it
Lunar Eclipse -- Just bad providence unless you don't plan to rip this class from celestial/light. Can't be always used when you need it, Most likely you would float wrong resource. If it had stat or some other fun offensive, or secondary defensive ability. (I'd pressed button if it was 0 turn for some builds)
Sollar Eclipse -- Same thing but at least you may afford spend turn lining up your energies.
Corona -- pretty interesting idea which not makes it bad outright bad or worse then current. Though 3 points tax and 1 category point tax to slightly mitigate your extreme generation levels is harsh. Though I like that barrage on deactivation. And there is no good source of criticals. sollar eclipse too Coincidential though again same reason you may spend extra turn for extra damage.

Last gripe resource flood. You'd have to spread quite thin lowering build diversity. May be helped if you have inherent resource flipping ability.
In fact I'd named your class as star seer. Or astrologist would be quite fitting and good addition.

No Resource management classes not necesary like drawn out fights. More often then not other way around(Corruptor is example, you need to finish fight quick before resource tax gets out of control, and as passive defense bone shield, slow,deseases, damage). Given how celestial resource work, management class may work and may work for drawn out fights. But here is problem either you lifting your defenses and reacting on threats or managing resources something should be a priority. It is hard to do both. So you need either strong and universal passive or semi active management talents and active defenses, like current anorithils, or management abilities with strong and universal passive defenses(whole bunch of sustains, plus pins, stat drains, e.t.c.).
(Same goes with paradox mages which are more control/management type they have huge defenses, new one even more)
Yours is just over board management without defenses to supply it.

Btw you really just should play current anorithils they are quite strong. (I played them without even auto casts :P. Looks like exploit.) And only gripe is floating positive energy making most sun light skills useless, and after new sun paladin just useless.
Have you played with them(asking not as insult) it is just most of your abilities somehow not feel anorithil like. When I played Edge's rework of sun paladin I felt familiarity, same with his other class reworks. He took best abilities, maybe changed them a little bit, but flow left same. His most rework was on useless abilities that are not worth of using like knockback for melee.
Even with temporal wardens and paradox mages he made but not yet released. I feel familiarity, and can do most things I could but better easier or in different way, while getting more fun stuff to play around. Even my favorite gather threads+premonition combo haven't gone anywhere, it just shifted to paradox. And you can still make lvl 5 (80 Spellpower elf staff yeek paradox mages). You need love to play this class to rework it and not lose its identity and understand what bothers others who don't like to play it to make them like it after rework.

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#20 Post by 0player »

Bormoth wrote:sun's fury -- Looks useless you lose chant just for extra damage There is no big reason to top your energy.
I hear you here, yes.
Bormoth wrote:Focused light-- looks too detrimental for you. I'm about energy costs to effect(You are just asking for overflow(Maybe if you have FlipCircles inherent ability to swap energies hen it is way to squeeze.
I tried to have at least one ability with a high gain. You're not supposed to spam it?
Bormoth wrote:Summerstrike too general. What is duration, range or centered, disarm not really useful 1 or 5 turns later, if if something beating you now, even though it has small usage, but until someone rushes, blindsides, shadowstrikes, e.t.c. you. if you want finisher moves make something that locks skill or life statuses, or lowers some stats, or makes in some way enemies vulnurable.
Disarm's supposed to be instant, though Lowering stats may be a good idea.
Bormoth wrote:Winter storm Interesting but again mind damage is bad for anorithils for one more reason it can be partially resisted with mind saves, and your mind power is low. No cost written.(Thought similar effect to summer strike but this makes quite interesting play.
Didn't copy over probably, it was supposed to be the same as summerstrike, with conditional confusion though.
Bormoth wrote:Twilight looks like taken from Empyreal addon similar effects, different stats.Would be good though if it was in fact drained resources at this point would be much better for build diversity.
I just wrote down what Doctornull said :D. There's only so much bonuses you can invent!
Making it drain instead of give is an idea I thought of myself. You think it'll be useful?
Bormoth wrote:Balance just hard to control skill make it direction target-able to lift at least fact that critical enemies appear in wrong half.
Even then considering unstable gameplay, tide may change and you don't have correct spells to use.(idea to make it reduce resists to element you used before this spell dunno.
Now that damage type is dependent on the type of energy you generate, yeh, you probably are a little less flexible in terms of what you can do, should absolutely be targetable.
Bormoth wrote:Penumbra -- Is generally bad totality: no damage penetration, when you need refresh at current state you would have at least one resource bar >50% most likely. Hardly you would ever be able to use it
Lunar Eclipse -- Just bad providence unless you don't plan to rip this class from celestial/light. Can't be always used when you need it, Most likely you would float wrong resource. If it had stat or some other fun offensive, or secondary defensive ability. (I'd pressed button if it was 0 turn for some builds)
Sollar Eclipse -- Same thing but at least you may afford spend turn lining up your energies.
Corona -- pretty interesting idea which not makes it bad outright bad or worse then current. Though 3 points tax and 1 category point tax to slightly mitigate your extreme generation levels is harsh. Though I like that barrage on deactivation. And there is no good source of criticals. sollar eclipse too Coincidential though again same reason you may spend extra turn for extra damage.
Hearing you about Lunar Eclipse, not happy about it myself. Maybe make it like Totality and do something else for Penumbra? (For example, making it a source of criticals, duh)
I just really dislike Blood Red Moon, this is about the most dull skill in the game.
Bormoth wrote:Btw you really just should play current anorithils they are quite strong. (I played them without even auto casts . Looks like exploit.) And only gripe is floating positive energy making most sun light skills useless, and after new sun paladin just useless.
Have you played with them(asking not as insult) it is just most of your abilities somehow not feel anorithil like. When I played Edge's rework of sun paladin I felt familiarity, same with his other class reworks. He took best abilities, maybe changed them a little bit, but flow left same. His most rework was on useless abilities that are not worth of using like knockback for melee.
I did, and quite a lot, actually... that is, every time I was successful in escaping the starting zone. Perhaps the issue is that I actually suck at them, and don't get their identity properly.
I hear you about not having enough defenses. The obvious way would be to directly reward resource management and grants defenses for it somehow... do you think that can be done?

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#21 Post by Doctornull »

Just on a personal note, I've never liked Glyphs or Traps. (This is probably a playstyle issue of mine.)

I'd like to have a couple more high-level trees so I could continue to ignore Glyphs in good conscience.
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Re: Anorithil ideas

#22 Post by cctobias »

Doctornull wrote:Just on a personal note, I've never liked Glyphs or Traps. (This is probably a playstyle issue of mine.)

I'd like to have a couple more high-level trees so I could continue to ignore Glyphs in good conscience.
Would you like something like Glyph of repulsion more if it covered more than one square in some sort of pattern? I mean for a ranged class KB things back can be useful so a "field" of repulsion should be useful.

One of the problems I have with traps/glyphs is that you have to get something to step in exactly that spot, which is possible but can be inconvient, suboptimal, require some wasted movement or terrain etc.

Something like say poison trap acutally covers a pretty good aoe, but its triggering is very small. Additionally it requires that they move. But I think more novel patterns would make the mechanic a bit better. One downfall of traps/glyphs is that some enemy types are often unlikely to move in certain circumstances.

If you had a glyph/trap that had a pattern where it surounded a spot with that glyph(target spot empy) then it could be put around an enemy to punish it if it moved, or put around yourself if they try to get to melee. This seems more intersting than a single space trigger.

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#23 Post by grayswandir »

My suggestion for glyphs:
Put down glyphs randomly in a selected area (or maybe just centered on yourself), covering say 25%-45% of the area. Also, have the glyphs give a beneficial effect for allies and a harmful effect for enemies.
So you could, for example, have a glyph of movement that pinned enemies and gave allies a (stacking) movespeed buff.
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Re: Anorithil ideas

#24 Post by donkatsu »

Another problem with Glyphs is that most competent melee enemies have Rush, which travels over traps without triggering them. Non-melee enemies tend not to move to begin with. I would like a way to trigger glyphs in an AoE without having to have something step on it. What if glyphs were sustains, which were permanent as long as they were sustained, but can be unsustained for an AoE burst that removes the glyph?

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#25 Post by Doctornull »

cctobias wrote:
Doctornull wrote:Just on a personal note, I've never liked Glyphs or Traps. (This is probably a playstyle issue of mine.)

I'd like to have a couple more high-level trees so I could continue to ignore Glyphs in good conscience.
Would you like something like Glyph of repulsion more if it covered more than one square in some sort of pattern? I mean for a ranged class KB things back can be useful so a "field" of repulsion should be useful.
Nope, I'm just not good with the whole "traps" kind of play style. It might be powerful and balanced and fun for other people but I will not use it well.

So, keep it for other people, but give me something else.
donkatsu wrote:Another problem with Glyphs is that most competent melee enemies have Rush, which travels over traps without triggering them. Non-melee enemies tend not to move to begin with. I would like a way to trigger glyphs in an AoE without having to have something step on it. What if glyphs were sustains, which were permanent as long as they were sustained, but can be unsustained for an AoE burst that removes the glyph?
Yeah Rush et al. also skip through arrows and other projectiles. It'd be neat if Rush and all the non-teleport version of Rush didn't actually skip tiles. (Maybe with Steamroller allow Rush to skip tiles, because if you spend a Prodigy you should be allowed to pull that kind of bullshit.)
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Re: Anorithil ideas

#26 Post by Bormoth »

I don't really have problems with traps well except AoE. It is pretty easy to predict where enemies would be if it is not snake. With rush it is pretty much the same they rush to your square. And where they would be placed more often then not depends on type of rush.
Plus anorithil has access to at least two skills to help against rushes:Darkest light and stealth.(though wish glyphs were spenders not gainers) And what I don't like of glyphs is they are just effect some times questionable, though again glyph of repulsion, slowing confusion, helps you keep enemies away while you spam 100% critical spells with greatly increased damage, (not saying glyphs auto crit and corona) Maybe I should just try them some time.
More fun of close in with darkest light, then unleash torrent of projectiles from your heals circles, and other dot spells.
If you ask me there is too much gainers for positive energy and so little spenders. Which just whacks light side out of balance in management. So from here comes idea to make more spenders in some way to make you do decision what energy you need. Even if light would mostly used for support stuff.

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#27 Post by A Meat »

I personally really don't like the gameplay that revolves around Corona and I would scrap it entirely since I didn't find it fun at all to use, but this is unrelated.
If we're brainstorming Anorithil ideas then I'll sort of repost the idea me and a few other people in the Something Awful ToME thread came up with (or at least my ideas between those):


Celestial/Satellites - core concept lore-wise is that you become a tiny planet of your own with even tinier moons that orbit you, who said moons need to be in the sky.
Skill 1: Satellites
Sustain, generates 3-5 or so satellites(orbs of light and dark energy) once every few turns, each passively granting small +dark and light damage%, additionally you learn an additional skill, Deploy, that temporarily expends one of your available satellites to place it as a turret, where it will occasionally shoot out light and dark damage shots at enemies within its range. Turrets would have a medium life span and low survivability on their own but would be invulnerable to friendly fire and you would be invulnerable to their attacks. Deploying a Turret would decrease your max Satellites until it goes away, but deploying a turret would have a low cooldown.

Skill 2:Syzygy
Spell, Low-medium CD, Medium range, costs a satellite, doesn't reduce the max amount. Shoots a slow moving projectile dealing medium light and dark damage and stunning for a few turns turns the first enemy hit, then continues going the full range of the skill dealing only dark damage and generating negative energy for each enemy hit.


Skill 3: Refraction
Passive, Whenever a spell you cast passes through a turret, that turret will instantly fire a weak light( or light+dark?) elemental bullet/beam at a nearby enemy, maybe also have it increase some other property of the spell that passes through a Turret.
In addition, Turrets within your light radius grant you sight within a small-medium radius and bonus stealth and trap detection

For the final skill I have two ideas:

Idea 1: Orbital Barrage (mostly if Corona is scrapped, this could be similar in concept and might work together too well)
Destroys all your Satellites and Turrets, and maybe puts the Satellites skill on cooldown as well, high negative energy cost, high cooldown, for each satellite destroyed, shoots a light projectile and a dark projectile dealing low damage at random enemies in a medium range, Turrets also explode in a small radius dealing light and dark damage.

Idea 2: Master Laser
Destroys all your Satellites, Costs all your positive energy, maybe generates negative energy ,high cooldown, shoots a range 10 laser dealing very high light damage proportional to the number of satellites you expended. Turrets would also fire a light beam at the tile you selected. Two ideas I had for additional effects for this are:
1. It would fire the laser a full turn (or more?) after you activated the skill, but in the turn it takes to charge the laser, you'd be invulnerable to damage and a small percentage of the damage you would take if you weren't invulnerable is added to the beam.
2. Adds damage proportional to the amount of positive energy you used up, maybe reduces cooldown on other skills for each enemy hit by the beam



If it wasn't clear, the inspiration for this is Gradius' options mechanic, combined with the idea of deploying turrets as support fire, which is in a bunch of places. I want all of the stuff of Anorithil to fit in with the concept of them being bullet hell/shmup characters, so that's more or less where my idea comes from.

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Re: Anorithil ideas

#28 Post by Bormoth »

A Meat wrote:I personally really don't like the gameplay that revolves around Corona and I would scrap it entirely since I didn't find it fun at all to use, but this is unrelated.
If we're brainstorming Anorithil ideas then I'll sort of repost the idea me and a few other people in the Something Awful ToME thread came up with (or at least my ideas between those):


Celestial/Satellites - core concept lore-wise is that you become a tiny planet of your own with even tinier moons that orbit you, who said moons need to be in the sky.

...
I Quite like this tree especially if it costs light energy or empowered by it as well as costs. Shoud nudge you a bit farther Anothiril is also high crit build(blood moon cuning) if there is no corona procs then it is not interesting(Crit barbarian has his own crit procs). You gain 75% weak crit chance corona barrage, for boring long CD orbital barrage with (150% crits) Not saying that whole number of skills becoming more boring, and much weaker. For now it's true that corona is practicaly signature Talent. Though pretty much every class has one or two.
You also weaken a lot his sustain what allow anorithil focus on defenses while stil doing some damage. Plus if you don't like some skill is doesn't mean that no one else likes it too. There is no reason to cut build others enjoy too much.(Actually quite liked old shadow similacrum too, one that casted weaker inversed spells with you). Removing corona doesn't serves for class becoming interesting.
Adding more skills especially ones that work on crits or do interesting stuff on crits does. for now there is just three builds come in mind. (Light based with Arcane surge(lot's of shields, but currently weak), Glyphs stealthy subversive( hail tricks of trade, you even get 25% darkest light for it, and really strong crits), and corona crit sustain build)

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