Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp
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Re: Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp
I always listen to all sides, worry not people
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
Re: Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp
Hi fortescue,
I have a few notes, please don't take any of them the wrong way, I am trying to be as critical as possible and I know you may already be defensive because some of the other posts in here. I haven't logged into the forums in a very long time to post but read all of the updates daily. (Hopefully, this is an indication of my love and passion for the class). I still remember the day DG came in game online and I got all excited showing him my 100% crit zerker!
1. Combat Veteran
I personally love this tree, I don't use it on all chars, and although you want something interesting with each level up, personally I love the new and improved heal amounts (considering the Bloodthirst tree changed from % healing increase). I love characters that feel as though they can reliably heal quickly when needed. I feel this tree is often overlooked but in my opinion is a great "management" tree for general survivability, which it does perfectly.
2. You have mentioned multiple times about "a skill or ability isn't very exciting", but different people play for different reasons. I personally love the current Zerker. Some of the abilities could be improved, and I love some of your suggestions on changes (I don't go into many specifics because I would love to see this class but preferably as an additional char - as mentioned below, rather than losing the current Berserker). What you perceive as being boring and uninteresting may not be the same as mine. I haven't won with very many different characters and chop and change a lot, but I do always find myself coming back to the Zerker. Mainly because I want someone easy to just pick up and go with, and it is by far my most played Class.
3. I didn't even realize the joys of Unstoppable (and many other skills) until after I had my first couple of wins (barely won on other chars but that is because I love the current Zerker so much). Some people may say that the current Death Dance is uninteresting. However, there is nothing like Rush --> 5/5 Death Dance --> 5/5 Shattering Blows. I believe I was the first person to get a flat 100% crit chance in gmae(in fact I managed to get it to about 175% on the character sheet before DG lowered the max displayed to 100%, (I know it didn't make any difference at that point but for me it was interesting to see how high I could get the number.)
4. Personally I loved making Zerkers as simplistic to play as possible. I get real enjoyment when I am frustrated playing a character that has a lot of fiddly options and button presses to playing an easy and simplistic build character. That doesn't mean that the character is uninteresting, it just means I don't have to always focus on as many things at once to relax.
5. I understand this point is exactly what you weren't looking for but please read to the end as I am not questioning your abilities (and sometimes the best designers aren't people that have the most amount of experience. This isn't meant to sound like a "I know more than you" because dev wise, I don't.
You mentioned:
6. As previously mentioned I am not disagreeing with most of your changes and welcome them but as it was previously mentioned in some ways it is a shame if the "Vanilla" version of Zerker is removed and I would personally hope that one of the Addon's specialists picks up bringing it back if this change goes ahead. I love the choice in this game, and you can build Sustain Based Chars, Passive based chars, lots of buttons based chars, stealthy chars, traps, life, death, healing, tanky, glass cannon, you can even build an anorthil that for the most part just walks around and lets everything crit through triggers. I think the game has a lot of flavor and new additions to classes are always good (I love seeing a new class or race come to the game), I am just really worried that I will no longer have my fun and easy relaxing character to fall back on when I get frustrated with other chars, or when I have a limited amount of time on my hands.
7. This is entirely your opinion and I take it with a pinch of salt of someone that was frustrated hearing negative comments when he put so much hard work and effort into making (a hopefully interesting) to most people char. I really hope that you take my opinion in the same regard. The last thing I want is for someone to get upset over someone else's opinion and feel as though they they aren't being appreciated by the effort they put in.
Here is another opinion of yours (after 3 weeks of playing tome at this point):
8. The "Primal Hunter" idea as an example is a brilliant addition. I personally would prefer it locked as I agree strongly with the other Dev's that Zerker should be about getting up close and personal, not ranged in any way. Whenever I image my character in game he is a very angly little (or big) man who wants to rip everything to shreds. Once again this is my opinion and although some people may like the idea I would prefer it being locked if it was brought to the game as this isn't how I would envision a "traditional" Zerker to act. Considering all of the other skills and abilities I just don't see thematically a Zerker charging through hoards of monsters to then stop, take aim and launch his weapon into the distance. When you think enraged you expect to see them constantly moving.
9. As an example: Some people love characters that have 1 Million options (maybe a slight exaggeration) but focussing on stats, sustains etc.. and having a bump character can be fun believe it or not
10.I really want to iterate, that I am love anyone that has the passion to go as in depth as you, and I am not trying to use "experience" as an argument. However... I think maybe you should just try and make this as an alt Zerker, e.g. the names are terrible here but trying to get across my point... is it not possible to have the current Zerker rename to Fearless Berserker and the new one to Thundering Berserker. I would absolutely LOVE to see your idea implemented and I realise if that is what has been decided upon high, but after all of these years playing ToME 2 and now ToME 4 my favourite class has always been Zerker. You could always just call the new class Primal Berserker (thus the tree).
As a final note:
I realise I may have made this post far too late, and I want to thank you 100% for your input and involvement in helping make 1 of my favourite all time games that much better, and hope you continue to do so in the future. I would love to see this class, but I would be very very sad to see it at the loss of my favorite in game class. I am a software tester as a profession and find myself working with some very tricky systems some when I play, I like to sometimes just completely switch off and unfocus Zerker is my cup of tea after a long day!
However, please always remember:
Just because it is your opinion doesn't make it right, just like mine does make it right either. Please try to take my opinions as opinions and suggestions and I hope I haven't offended anyone in any way with my views.
I have a few notes, please don't take any of them the wrong way, I am trying to be as critical as possible and I know you may already be defensive because some of the other posts in here. I haven't logged into the forums in a very long time to post but read all of the updates daily. (Hopefully, this is an indication of my love and passion for the class). I still remember the day DG came in game online and I got all excited showing him my 100% crit zerker!
1. Combat Veteran
I personally love this tree, I don't use it on all chars, and although you want something interesting with each level up, personally I love the new and improved heal amounts (considering the Bloodthirst tree changed from % healing increase). I love characters that feel as though they can reliably heal quickly when needed. I feel this tree is often overlooked but in my opinion is a great "management" tree for general survivability, which it does perfectly.
2. You have mentioned multiple times about "a skill or ability isn't very exciting", but different people play for different reasons. I personally love the current Zerker. Some of the abilities could be improved, and I love some of your suggestions on changes (I don't go into many specifics because I would love to see this class but preferably as an additional char - as mentioned below, rather than losing the current Berserker). What you perceive as being boring and uninteresting may not be the same as mine. I haven't won with very many different characters and chop and change a lot, but I do always find myself coming back to the Zerker. Mainly because I want someone easy to just pick up and go with, and it is by far my most played Class.
3. I didn't even realize the joys of Unstoppable (and many other skills) until after I had my first couple of wins (barely won on other chars but that is because I love the current Zerker so much). Some people may say that the current Death Dance is uninteresting. However, there is nothing like Rush --> 5/5 Death Dance --> 5/5 Shattering Blows. I believe I was the first person to get a flat 100% crit chance in gmae(in fact I managed to get it to about 175% on the character sheet before DG lowered the max displayed to 100%, (I know it didn't make any difference at that point but for me it was interesting to see how high I could get the number.)
4. Personally I loved making Zerkers as simplistic to play as possible. I get real enjoyment when I am frustrated playing a character that has a lot of fiddly options and button presses to playing an easy and simplistic build character. That doesn't mean that the character is uninteresting, it just means I don't have to always focus on as many things at once to relax.
5. I understand this point is exactly what you weren't looking for but please read to the end as I am not questioning your abilities (and sometimes the best designers aren't people that have the most amount of experience. This isn't meant to sound like a "I know more than you" because dev wise, I don't.
You mentioned:
I started ToME around Beta 14ish and I always take a Zerker out for a spin every time a new version becomes available. Quite literally, the very first thing I do. I don't find them boring in the slightest and I think if all of these changes are made that could change my perception quite heavily which would be a shame, I am wondering if there are others out there that feel the same but aren't avid readers of the forums. I love the choices you can have in the game, for example with a Berserker I love seeing if I can try a different build (even if it turns out to be terrible) for example, I have played dual wield zerkers, staff zerkers, 2 handed weapon zerkers, shouting zerkers, bloodied zerkers, 100% passive crit zerkers, fungal zerkers, arcane zerkers, most of the class race zerkers, cunning zerkers, ridiculous healing based zerkers, shattering zerkers, tried nearly every prodigy out type zerkers etc... As I think Saka said, you have only played to level 15 and once, I have completed the game maybe 20 times on a zerker and a handful of other chars, (this isn't a dig at experience but please read on) . You may retort with the fact that maybe I am not tactical enough or enjoy playing boring uninteresting characters, but I have played Zerkers to death and know them intimately, they are my friend and I will mourn their loss if they disappear entirely to a class I no longer connect with on a personal level.My qualifications are that I started playing ToME 3 weeks ago and got a Berserker to level 15 before deciding it was dreadfully dull and could be so much better. It didn't die, I just didn't think the class was very fun and was not compelled to find out how much more interesting bumping into things could get in ToME, so I stopped playing and started designing an improvement.
6. As previously mentioned I am not disagreeing with most of your changes and welcome them but as it was previously mentioned in some ways it is a shame if the "Vanilla" version of Zerker is removed and I would personally hope that one of the Addon's specialists picks up bringing it back if this change goes ahead. I love the choice in this game, and you can build Sustain Based Chars, Passive based chars, lots of buttons based chars, stealthy chars, traps, life, death, healing, tanky, glass cannon, you can even build an anorthil that for the most part just walks around and lets everything crit through triggers. I think the game has a lot of flavor and new additions to classes are always good (I love seeing a new class or race come to the game), I am just really worried that I will no longer have my fun and easy relaxing character to fall back on when I get frustrated with other chars, or when I have a limited amount of time on my hands.
7. This is entirely your opinion and I take it with a pinch of salt of someone that was frustrated hearing negative comments when he put so much hard work and effort into making (a hopefully interesting) to most people char. I really hope that you take my opinion in the same regard. The last thing I want is for someone to get upset over someone else's opinion and feel as though they they aren't being appreciated by the effort they put in.
Here is another opinion of yours (after 3 weeks of playing tome at this point):
I hope you don't disregard my whole post because I do enjoy making a class every now and then that loves to "bump" into thingsFinally, you will gain no ground with me by suggesting bumping into things as your primary method of combat is ever superior to "microing, thinking, and meticulous planning". If you don't like pressing buttons, ToME may not be the game for you. It has always been my impression that the goal of ToME is to make combat more interesting than other roguelikes by offering everyone, even the Warrior classes, more to do than just bump into things.
8. The "Primal Hunter" idea as an example is a brilliant addition. I personally would prefer it locked as I agree strongly with the other Dev's that Zerker should be about getting up close and personal, not ranged in any way. Whenever I image my character in game he is a very angly little (or big) man who wants to rip everything to shreds. Once again this is my opinion and although some people may like the idea I would prefer it being locked if it was brought to the game as this isn't how I would envision a "traditional" Zerker to act. Considering all of the other skills and abilities I just don't see thematically a Zerker charging through hoards of monsters to then stop, take aim and launch his weapon into the distance. When you think enraged you expect to see them constantly moving.
9. As an example: Some people love characters that have 1 Million options (maybe a slight exaggeration) but focussing on stats, sustains etc.. and having a bump character can be fun believe it or not
10.I really want to iterate, that I am love anyone that has the passion to go as in depth as you, and I am not trying to use "experience" as an argument. However... I think maybe you should just try and make this as an alt Zerker, e.g. the names are terrible here but trying to get across my point... is it not possible to have the current Zerker rename to Fearless Berserker and the new one to Thundering Berserker. I would absolutely LOVE to see your idea implemented and I realise if that is what has been decided upon high, but after all of these years playing ToME 2 and now ToME 4 my favourite class has always been Zerker. You could always just call the new class Primal Berserker (thus the tree).
As a final note:
I realise I may have made this post far too late, and I want to thank you 100% for your input and involvement in helping make 1 of my favourite all time games that much better, and hope you continue to do so in the future. I would love to see this class, but I would be very very sad to see it at the loss of my favorite in game class. I am a software tester as a profession and find myself working with some very tricky systems some when I play, I like to sometimes just completely switch off and unfocus
Zerker is my cup of tea after a long day! However, please always remember:
Just because it is your opinion doesn't make it right, just like mine does make it right either. Please try to take my opinions as opinions and suggestions and I hope I haven't offended anyone in any way with my views.
Re: Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp
Thanks for your input, you were very respectful while disagreeing so of course I am not offended. I think some people assumed these changes were larger than they really are. Did you read this post?Salkhir wrote:Hi fortescue,
I have a few notes, please don't take any of them the wrong way, I am trying to be as critical as possible and I know you may already be defensive because some of the other posts in here. I haven't logged into the forums in a very long time to post but read all of the updates daily. (Hopefully, this is an indication of my love and passion for the class). I still remember the day DG came in game online and I got all excited showing him my 100% crit zerker!
I think when you look at the change list in a condensed form like this it shows how just a few small tweaks can make a big improvement to how a game is played. I hope you give the new Berserker a chance before you decide you won't like the changes. DarkGod has already coded most of them into the upcoming 1.2, so you'll get an opportunity soon(ish). Death Dance won't have the move component, but will keep the recommended Bleed effect. Primal Hunter is on the back burner for now, the Axe Throw talent inside of it will probably end up as an alternative finishing move to Execution, it was never meant to be a "mash as soon as it is available" button like Stunning Blow is. Oh, and Execution won't make you vulnerable to counter attack.Fortescue wrote:My mistake was using the phrase "pushing more buttons" to describe what was really increased tactical options. Current Berserker has less options per turn than any other class in the game. All my changes do is increase those options by:
- Removing 1 attack (Sunder Weapon)
- Adding 1 (objectively better) attack (Fearless Cleave)
- Replacing an underperforming Sustain (Blood Frenzy) with a powerful Active (Relentless Fury)
- Lowering some cooldowns
- Changing what some skills do slightly (making them more worth putting 5/5 points in, typically)
Re: Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp
Hi Fortescue,
Must admit, I don't believe I have ever on my countless journeys taken (or at least used) Sunder Weapon so no complaints there. I am very interested in seeing Relentless Fury although I didn't mind Blood Frenzy personally. But I tried to go mass AoE kills, but I suppose that is something I can live with losing.
(A little more worried about losing some of the standard Combat Veteran stuff (did that end up being removed / locked?)
Either way, I would have ofc tried the new Berskerker (was just hoping not to lose the current itteration) No matter how much I like or dislike a particular class or addon, someone had the time and passion to create it and therefore it should be appreciated and I will try it at least a few times. I am still merrily working my way through the Null Pack class pack and loving it. There are a few I don't agree with or aren't my style but the effort deserves love and attention, and it so happens some of them I love to pieces).
Out of interest the only point in there that is a little ambiguous is the "Changing what some skills do slightly (making them more worth putting 5/5 points in, typically)". Is there the final confirmed list?
Every time I see a new version available it is like christmas (only better). Travelling a lot atm, planning on trying to finally upgrade to sponsored account. ToME is the only game I take with me everywhere.
Any idea if we are looking at the next: week, month, 3 months for the next release?
On a side note, I was looking at some of your other changes and new classes. A lot of them have looked interesting so didn't say anything it was only when I saw the potential of losing my little baby that I got concerned! This class would be a make or break class for me and to lose the enjoyment I get from it already would make me leave and not look back
Which as it is my birthday today, makes me sad
Must admit, I don't believe I have ever on my countless journeys taken (or at least used) Sunder Weapon so no complaints there. I am very interested in seeing Relentless Fury although I didn't mind Blood Frenzy personally. But I tried to go mass AoE kills, but I suppose that is something I can live with losing.
(A little more worried about losing some of the standard Combat Veteran stuff (did that end up being removed / locked?)
Either way, I would have ofc tried the new Berskerker (was just hoping not to lose the current itteration
) No matter how much I like or dislike a particular class or addon, someone had the time and passion to create it and therefore it should be appreciated and I will try it at least a few times. I am still merrily working my way through the Null Pack class pack and loving it. There are a few I don't agree with or aren't my style but the effort deserves love and attention, and it so happens some of them I love to pieces). Out of interest the only point in there that is a little ambiguous is the "Changing what some skills do slightly (making them more worth putting 5/5 points in, typically)". Is there the final confirmed list?
Every time I see a new version available it is like christmas (only better). Travelling a lot atm, planning on trying to finally upgrade to sponsored account. ToME is the only game I take with me everywhere.
Any idea if we are looking at the next: week, month, 3 months for the next release?
On a side note, I was looking at some of your other changes and new classes. A lot of them have looked interesting so didn't say anything it was only when I saw the potential of losing my little baby that I got concerned! This class would be a make or break class for me and to lose the enjoyment I get from it already would make me leave and not look back
Which as it is my birthday today, makes me sad Re: Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp
I would like to update / replace Combat Veteran passives, but DG is not on board with doing that as of right now, so I doubt you'll see any changes to that category in 1.2.
You should check out http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=40774, which might have better odds of making it into the class for 1.2 (not sure). Respectful critique is always appreciated.
I did come up with a new Stamina / HP Regen category:
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=40825
It isn't done yet, though. It will likely debut with Skirmisher and we'll see how DG feels about spreading it around after that. I've already toned Tireless Combatant down from what you see in that forum post based on Skirmisher testing.
As far as a release date only DG knows that I am trying to get Skirmisher finished in time for 1.2 but we'll see if it makes it.
You should check out http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=40774, which might have better odds of making it into the class for 1.2 (not sure). Respectful critique is always appreciated.
I did come up with a new Stamina / HP Regen category:
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=40825
It isn't done yet, though. It will likely debut with Skirmisher and we'll see how DG feels about spreading it around after that. I've already toned Tireless Combatant down from what you see in that forum post based on Skirmisher testing.
As far as a release date only DG knows that
I am trying to get Skirmisher finished in time for 1.2 but we'll see if it makes it.