why not just merge melee weapon and dagger mastery?

[comrade raoul]

I'm pretty sure this topic has come up before, but I can't remember it being discussed explicitly and directly.

I feel like combining melee weapon and dagger mastery into a single talent (presumably with disjunctive stat requirements á la Combat Techniques) that applied to both would be a very simple change, with substantial benefits and no drawbacks. Dual daggers would remain an attractive option for lots of characters (rogues, shadowblades, and non-Strength-based builds), but others would not be shoehorned into them. The major beneficiaries would be marauders and temporal wardens, both of whom have clear thematic affinities for the one-hander/dagger style and equally clear balance issues. Plus, less restrictive equipment options is in general more fun, since more of the stuff you come across is potentially worth using and therefore interesting.

So, why hasn't this been done?

[malboro_urchin]

I agree with you, it'd save a 5 point generic sink as well as a possible stat headache for multi-stat-dependent characters (who already have it rough; some multi-stat-dependent characters don't always get higher returns/increased power from investing in multiple stats than, say, a class with one or two stats they really need, like Archmage)

[Doctornull]

I've submitted a patch to DarkGod which covers the first step on the way to enabling this.

My full plan is here: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=40582

[HousePet]

I'd merge the melee mastery talents and combat accuracy together and split them into two like so:

Weapon Mastery: Increases accuracy and weapon damage. Requires strength.
Weapon Finesse: Increases physical power and critical hit chance. Requires dexterity.

[malboro_urchin]

What's a doombringer?

[comrade raoul]

I guess I don't see the case for specialized melee weapon mastery talents at all--not even one-handed versus two-handed. (Staves and mindstars are different, of course.)

Class talents and stats already generate considerable pressure to specialize in many cases; as it stands, berserkers will want to use two-handers in nearly every case. All dividing weapon mastery into one- and two-handed talents would do is turn "nearly every" into "every"--which would be a shame. It would needlessly eliminate potentially interesting choices: the berserker who finds a great one-hander or situationally useful shield (like a really good one with lightning resistance right before Tempest Peak) should get to weigh the option of using it as backup gear without having to juggle generic points. (Similarly, melee classes that don't have many weapon-specific talents, like cursed, should enjoy the flexibility as a perk.)

[Doctornull]

I guess I don't see the case for specialized melee weapon mastery talents at all--not even one-handed versus two-handed.

Different benefit, different payout.

In the test version I'm playing now, there are three major weapon talents:
- Weapons Mastery (all ranged, unarmed, and melee except Tridents and Whips, but at 0.8 * talent level)
- Agile Mastery (daggers and Whips)
- Greatweapon Mastery (axes, swords, maces and Tridents)

Plus some very specific talents:
- Bows (only bows, get free reloads, unlocks a tree)
- Slings (only slings, get free reloads, unlocks a tree)
- Unarmed (only unarmed, unlocks a tree)
- Shield (Stone Warden only)
- Staff
- Mindstar


For example, consider a Rogue, whose choice will be:
- Agile only
- Agile + Sling
- Weapons Mastery
All three choices have costs and benefits. If the character is unsure how the late game will play out, going for Weapons Mastery is a pretty safe choice.


For a Temporal Warden, the choices might be:
- Weapons Mastery
- Agile + Bows
- Bows only
- Staff only
- Staff + Bow
... which again, all have costs and benefits.

[comrade raoul]

Makes sense. I guess my issue is that the one thing your proposal doesn't do is the one thing I originally wanted--the one-hander/dagger option. (Weapons mastery does this, of course, but at a penalty.) But maybe I shouldn't want this and the penalty is fine.

How'd you feel about Blades (daggers, swords) / Hafted Weapons (maces, axes, exotics) instead of Agile/Great, and letting general Weapons cover whips (but not tridents)? Dagger wielders would lose out on free whips, but that might just make the Blades/general Weapons choice more interesting for rogues. (And in a way this makes sense--I like preserving the idea of whips as unusual weapons that only someone with unusual training (Dex characters with Hafted Weapon Mastery) or broad knowledge (generic Weapons) can use well.)

[Fortescue]

doctornull, I love this idea because it would make Marauders able to use a normal 1H + Dagger without spending 10 points, but maybe they could have a 1.0 ratio on the generic Weapons Mastery since otherwise it would likely still be superior to just do Agile on them.

[Doctornull]

Makes sense. I guess my issue is that the one thing your proposal doesn't do is the one thing I originally wanted--the one-hander/dagger option. (Weapons mastery does this, of course, but at a penalty.) But maybe I shouldn't want this and the penalty is fine.

The idea is that when you pay more, you get more. The basic Weapon Mastery talent will give you a lot of options at a very low cost, but lower overall power with each option.

How'd you feel about Blades (daggers, swords) / Hafted Weapons (maces, axes, exotics) instead of Agile/Great, and letting general Weapons cover whips (but not tridents)?

Segregating by weapon type (swords / axes / maces) was a thing in previous versions of ToME, and apparently people hated it.

doctornull, I love this idea because it would make Marauders able to use a normal 1H + Dagger without spending 10 points, but maybe they could have a 1.0 ratio on the generic Weapons Mastery since otherwise it would likely still be superior to just do Agile on them.

Pay 10 points, get 1.0 mastery on both weapons.
Pay 5 points, get 0.8 mastery on both weapons, and +5 generic points to spend elsewhere.

[HousePet]

Would be nice to make the choice a bit more than just 'what weapons do I want to use?'.
Certainly not having to duplicate to cover certain weapon styles is an improvement, but its still a bit of a no thought generic sink.

[Doctornull]

Would be nice to make the choice a bit more than just 'what weapons do I want to use?'.
Certainly not having to duplicate to cover certain weapon styles is an improvement, but its still a bit of a no thought generic sink.

It's a step in the right direction.

More steps can follow.

[Sirrocco]

I am a definite fan of putting the whips and tridents under some skill that people might conceivably want to invest in wihtout limiting themselves forever to whips and tridents. I would say, though, that you'd need to make sure that Weapons Mastery didn't stack with the others - otherwise, there's a real incentive to max both that and whatever else you're wielding.

[Doctornull]

I would say, though, that you'd need to make sure that Weapons Mastery didn't stack with the others - otherwise, there's a real incentive to max both that and whatever else you're wielding.

Yep, they don't.

Download Nulltweaks and enable the Mastery option. You'll like it.

Cheers!