Tools of the Trade (Marauder Class Category)

[Fortescue]

It seems simple enough to me, how you would make melee viable. Up their resists. Armour doesn't block spells, only resists and saves. So just leave Thick Skin where it is so everyone can get 15% resist all, then add new sources of resist all into the class categories for melee classes like Marauder. If you cut all incoming damage by 75% that is probably enough to survive most situations, right? (just an an example number).

[comrade raoul]

Or armor/defense could help against spells? (This needn't be a global change, which would presumably be much more trouble than it's worth--classes that needed it could get a talent.) Fwiw I'm a big fan of all of Grey's suggestions, especially Chaos of the Fight.

Another thing to keep in mind is Cunning/Tactics--it's a cool, flavorful tree and close to a marauder exclusive already, but as it stands it's of limited use. (For many reasons--the steep Cunning scaling, resist reduction capstone, the presence of more important trees to unlock--it's mostly limited to late game, but that's when the defense boosts most of its talents provide matter least.) As such it strikes me as a natural place to put the necessary defensive boosts.

(Of course, this would a affect Brawlers too; I don't know if that would be good or bad. It could be cool, as Faeryan suggested, if marauders used combo points themselves, for dual weapon attacks, and perhaps even for defense.)

[bpat]

It seems simple enough to me, how you would make melee viable. Up their resists. Armour doesn't block spells, only resists and saves. So just leave Thick Skin where it is so everyone can get 15% resist all, then add new sources of resist all into the class categories for melee classes like Marauder. If you cut all incoming damage by 75% that is probably enough to survive most situations, right? (just an an example number).

The issue is that enemies in the east get high resistance penetration on high difficulties (and even on Normal to a lesser extent). Because of this, simply giving resist all isn't going to make melee viable on high difficulties since enemies still do high damage with 70% resist all because of their resistance penetration.

[Fortescue]

And why do those enemies need resist penetration if all that is doing is making melee unplayable?

[Doctornull]

And why do those enemies need resist penetration if all that is doing is making melee unplayable?

Currently, it's not doing any such thing.

[malboro_urchin]

And why do those enemies need resist penetration if all that is doing is making melee unplayable?

Currently, it's not doing any such thing.

Not to mention that any change you make to the skirmisher talent affects ranged just as much as it affects melee.

[Fortescue]

And why do those enemies need resist penetration if all that is doing is making melee unplayable?

Currently, it's not doing any such thing.

Of course it isn't, since people still think Marauder is the most powerful class in the game

I wanted them to explain with more detail why adding more resists in melee talents wouldn't help. I guess there is a resist cap, and you can go past it with the right effects. Maybe that is something to look into as an alternative to Unstoppable for Marauder.

[bpat]

[quote="Fortescue"]And why do those enemies need resist penetration if all that is doing is making melee unplayable?[/quote

Melee isn't unplayable, but melee classes without ridiculous survival are very bad on Insane and Madness. The only ones that are viable have invulnerability or near invulnerability (Berserker, Marauder, Temporal Warden, and Arcane Blade) or that are very strong or abusable in other ways (Cursed, Rogue, prenerf Shadowblade). Bulwarks, Brawlers, Shadowblades, Wyrmics, and Sun Paladins preform very poorly on these difficulties since they don't have enough defense to survive (even Second Life, Retribution, Barrier, and Providence don't give Sun Paladins enough defense to survive more than a few turns on these difficulties).

[nogardark]

The problem really is not the amount of resistances but that when you are melee and engage one enemy, you have to engage his pack too(resistances could scale with the amount of enemies like some skills, but there is still the problem with res pen), when you are ranged you can get in a position where you can fight one on one against a ranged opponent(besides many other strategic advantages) or fight unopposed against a melee one.

marauder is very strong because they have the best tools to deal high damage (with dual wielding) in a very short amount of time, with GWF, flurry,momentum, Vicious strikes and total thuggery, I don't know which tree they lack to make them more deadly.

Unstoppable is both out of character and disproportionate given all the terrifying offensive tools the marauder has.

I still think we should push for an extremely mobile fighter that has many tools to avoid projectiles even if only to break out of the template, unstoppable->GWF->rush-> WIN!blade-> do some shit -> run like the wind to wait for cooldowns.

[Grey]

I am strongly opposed to removing Step Up from Battle Tactics since it would be a massive nerf to Bulwarks and Arcane Blades and it would completely change how they're played.

Arcane Blades only recently got Battle Tactics as an option, so I fail to see how the removal of an optional tree would change them dramatically. As for Bulwarks, it would indeed change them, but the change is more in line with their playstyle. Mobility doesn't gel well with their class theme.

[bpat]

I am strongly opposed to removing Step Up from Battle Tactics since it would be a massive nerf to Bulwarks and Arcane Blades and it would completely change how they're played.

Arcane Blades only recently got Battle Tactics as an option, so I fail to see how the removal of an optional tree would change them dramatically. As for Bulwarks, it would indeed change them, but the change is more in line with their playstyle. Mobility doesn't gel well with their class theme.

Removing things like Greater Weapon Focus and Step Up from Arcane Blades is very anti-fun since severely nerfs the class by limiting its options it makes it much less interesting to play. If you don't feel like getting Battle Tactics that's fine, but there's no reason to ruin it for the 90% of Arcane Blade players who like it. For Bulwarks, literally the only thing they have going for them over Sun Paladins is Greater Weapon Focus and mobility, so this would seriously cripple an already average class. If you want Marauder to have something unique, that's fine, but don't mess up other classes in the process.

[Fortescue]

Only 2 good things about it you say? Sounds like Bulwark could use some love too while we're doing some spring cleaning.

I think you're being disingenuous though when you say that there are only 2 good things about Bulwark.

[bpat]

Only 2 good things about it you say? Sounds like Bulwark could use some love too while we're doing some spring cleaning.

I think you're being disingenuous though when you say that there are only 2 good things about Bulwark.

Compared to Sun Paladin, the only reason they deal more damage is because of Greater Weapon Focus (without it Sun Paladin easily wins in damage thanks to Brandish, Wave of Power, and Crusade). Shield Wall and Conditioning are nice but the Light tree is probably better thanks to Barrier and Providence. Retribution and Second Life beat Last Stand, Bulwark's other signature defense talent, pretty easily. Without Step Up, the two classes would be equal in mobility once Sun Paladin unlocks Combat Techniques. If Bulwark lost Battle Tactics, once Sun Paladins unlock both their locked categories the only advantages Bulwark would have would be Shield Wall (which is still worse than Sun Paladin's defense) and some free category points that at best will unlock Stone Alchemy and Superiority/Warcries, none of which are particularly exciting.

I'm not saying there are only two things good about Bulwarks, but there really are only two things they do better than Sun Paladins. However, mobility and damage are both really important, so at the moment I'd actually say Bulwark is stronger at least on Normal.

Edit: I don't think Bulwark needs any major buffs or nerfs since it's in a pretty good place right now, but I do think Block needs some changes to be a viable defensive mechanic on higher difficulties (even with Eternal Guard and Spectral Shield, Bulwarks would still often die in a turn on Insane). Block should probably prevent a minimum percentage (probably at least 50%, maybe more considering it takes a turn to use and you can't have 100% uptime anyway) of the incoming damage to make it help against spells and attacks dealing over 1000 damage. Maybe this could be added to Spectral Shield if that's too big of a buff.