Tools of the Trade (Marauder Class Category)

[Fortescue]

Tools of the Trade was the best thing to come out of my posts in this thread so I'm just making that the main topic now.

Possible replacement for Battle Tactics.

Tools of the Trade (locked category)

Boot Blade
Activate this talent to deliver a brutal kick at your foe, doing 75%-150% (Strength) weapon damage. If your Opponent is “Off Guard” or “Off Balance” this attack does double damage and is a guaranteed critical hit. Starting at rank 3 you also kick dirt into your enemy’s face as part of the same motion, blinding them for 3+skill turns (chance scales w/ Cunning). Cooldown 10-5 turns (skill).

Deadly Knives
Passive. Grab a secret knife and throw it at your foes, once per turn in which you attack. You have a 33%-66% (dex) chance of attacking a random enemy with a range of 2-7 squares (skill) with a thrown knife for 50%-100% of your attack damage (strength). At level 5 you become so skilled with throwing knives that you throw 2 per activation. Can activate with any basic attack or attack talent.

Garrote Master
Activate this talent to draw a hidden garrote and strangle an enemy. This enemy bleeds for 200%-500% weapon damage (strength + skill rank) over 3 turns and is Silenced for the duration. Starting at rank 3 if an enemy dies from the damage inflicted by Garrote, the cooldown is refreshed. Size of enemies who can be Garroted increases with rank. Rank 5 has no size restriction. Cooldown 15.

Hidden Medicine
Passive. You have a fake tooth that contains a powerful stimulant and antidote to many of the various non-magical ailments one may suffer from while wandering Eyal. At rank 1, If you fail to resist any poison or disabling effect, you automatically use your medicine tooth to cure it, instantly. At rank 2, your medicine can also prevent you from sleeping. At rank 3, you cure yourself of any Stun or Daze effect with an even more powerful stimulant. At rank 4 the stimulant is so powerful it overcomes Crippling. At rank 5 your body is so accustomed to these effects that all of your saves are given +3-7 (Constitution). Cooldown 30-15 turns (skill level).


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Just my first draft of some ideas for a "hidden weapons" style category. Comments and suggestions welcome.

[TheRani]

I would absolutely love for Marauders to have knife throwing abilities.

[comrade raoul]

A few (compatible) possible directions:

--) Debuffs and damage over time: Though I think marauders should never take Poisons, I've also never understood why they don't get Scoundrel. Nothing says "resourceful mobile fighter" like handicapping some of your enemies, making others bleed, and then getting the hell out of Dodge.

--) Unpredictable but generous cooldown mitigation. Lots of tricks up your sleeve, but limited control over what you have available when makes for a flashy, swashbuckling style that fits the class. (I may like this proposal because I unsuccessfully tried to simulate it with Eye of the Tiger on my last marauder.)

--) While marauders should definitely lose Bloodthirst, I hope you guys are keeping in mind that this will make them one of the most fragile classes in the game unless seriously compensated for. Specifically, they need a way to mitigate or avoid non-physical ranged damage that is neither crudely tanky nor Stealth.

--) Knives are cool, but marauders scratch my melee finesse fighter itch and I don't want that to change.

[Faeryan]

What Raoul said is pretty close to what I had in mind.
Battle Tactics might be a bit strong tree, but the second tier movement skill fits Marauder like nothing else.
I'd like to think Marauder as mobile fighter and that's just it. Maybe some slow, pin, cripple stuff to go with it. Lightning Rune also has a nice not widely used effect. Maybe Marauder could have something like that.

This might be a bit long shot but having some kind of dual resources bar would be nice. One that would work like stamina, where you rest and regain it to use on skills, other one acting like Hate, some kind of battle frenzy that would make other skills gain resources to be used in battle.

This would allow a more Rogue like approach where you dive in and hit em where it hurts or take some hits and start doing some damage after getting warmed up.. or just a bit of both.

The starting skills could gain some kind of combo points that you could then use on so called finisher moves.

Also I'd really like to see Marauders doing some kind of Sword and Dagger thing with a bit less Generic point investment it now has. Fortesque I believe had something to remedy this on his Combat Training revamp suggestion.

[Fortescue]

Possible replacement for Battle Tactics.

Tools of the Trade (locked category)

Boot Blade
Activate this talent to deliver a brutal kick at your foe, doing 75%-150% (Strength) weapon damage. If your Opponent is “Off Guard” or “Off Balance” this attack does double damage and is a guaranteed critical hit. Starting at rank 3 you also kick dirt into your enemy’s face as part of the same motion, blinding them for 3+skill turns (chance scales w/ Cunning). Cooldown 10-5 turns (skill).

Deadly Knives
Passive. Grab a secret knife and throw it at your foes, once per turn in which you attack. You have a 33%-66% (dex) chance of attacking a random enemy with a range of 2-7 squares (skill) with a thrown knife for 50%-100% of your attack damage (strength). At level 5 you become so skilled with throwing knives that you throw 2 per activation. Can activate with any basic attack or attack talent.

Garrote Master
Activate this talent to draw a hidden garrote and strangle an enemy. This enemy bleeds for 200%-500% weapon damage (strength + skill rank) over 3 turns and is Silenced for the duration. Starting at rank 3 if an enemy dies from the damage inflicted by Garrote, the cooldown is refreshed. Size of enemies who can be Garroted increases with rank. Rank 5 has no size restriction. Cooldown 15.

Hidden Medicine
Passive. You have a fake tooth that contains a powerful stimulant and antidote to many of the various non-magical ailments one may suffer from while wandering Eyal. At rank 1, If you fail to resist any poison or disabling effect, you automatically use your medicine tooth to cure it, instantly. At rank 2, your medicine can also prevent you from sleeping. At rank 3, you cure yourself of any Stun or Daze effect with an even more powerful stimulant. At rank 4 the stimulant is so powerful it overcomes Crippling. At rank 5 your body is so accustomed to these effects that all of your saves are given +3-7 (Constitution). Cooldown 30-15 turns (skill level).


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Just my first draft of some ideas for a "hidden weapons" style category. Comments and suggestions welcome.

[Fortescue]

What Raoul said is pretty close to what I had in mind.
Battle Tactics might be a bit strong tree, but the second tier movement skill fits Marauder like nothing else.
I'd like to think Marauder as mobile fighter and that's just it. Maybe some slow, pin, cripple stuff to go with it. Lightning Rune also has a nice not widely used effect. Maybe Marauder could have something like that.

It seems very likely that Light Armour Training is going to move into Combat Training some time soon and when that happens you could be a Dex specialist Marauder that gets bonus movement speed from that talent. Not sure it would be enough to make up for losing Step Up, but this is something that could be addressed. I think Marauder needs at least 2 unique class talent categories (every class should have at least 2... jeeze). It shouldn't be hard to keep them mobile in 1 of those 8 talents. Heck, could even just save Step Up for them and take it out of Battle Tactics (it doesn't really fit Bulwark very well if you ask me).

[Theyleon]

I think a skill which allows sword/dagger dual wielding without needing 10 generics into the 2 masteries would be good - it's the most 'realistic' way of dual wielding, but never used in game due to the skill requirements.

The numbers on the Tools of the trade probably need tweaking (300% damage guaranteed crit on 5 turn cooldown?) but there's some good ideas in there.

[bpat]

Whatever changes, it'd be a shame if Marauder ended up being worthless on Insane and Madness like it was before the buffs. If they're losing Bloodthirst, Maurader's really need some comparable defense (maybe with less emphasis on offense) otherwise they'll go back to being garbage outside of Normal difficulty. It's worth noting that Marauders had the worst defense out of any class before the buffs, so it'd suck if they went back to being terrible at surviving. To replace the awesomeness that is Unstoppable, Marauders will need something way better than Hidden Medicine, which honestly seems like the weakest talent in the new tree and it has a bit too much overlap with Unflinching Resolve. I would add something they works like Second Life or Shadow Decoy to it to make it more useful and interesting, although Marauders will still need more defense than just that.

Another idea is leave the Bloodthirst category but at low mastery, like 0.8, so Unstoppable would only last about three turns making it less appealing than before. This would make it less of a crutch for most players while keeping the class viable on Insane and Madness without having to resort to Murderblade shenanigans.

[HousePet]

I see Marauder as a heavy style rogue. Someone who uses their strength and their cunning to get what they want, any way they want. A thug basically.

Whereas a Berserker goes crazy all out offense, a Marauder is more calculated, using dirty tricks to disable or weaken their enemies before killing them slowly and painfully.

For equipment, ideally its a one hander, a dagger and heavy armour. But some more brutish ones might prefer a two hander. Less built marauders might prefer dual daggers or light armour instead.

Primary stats would be strength and cunning, however since there isn't a finesse warrior class, I'd be quite happy with dexterity being useful as a primary stat too.

Categories that fit:
Two Handed Maiming.
Battle Tactics.
Combat Techniques.
Combat Veteran.
Dual Weapon Training.
Dual Weapon Techniques.
Field Control.
Thuggery.
Brawling stuff maybe?
Dirty Fighting.
Lethality.
Scoundrel.
Tactical.

[nogardark]

Opinion: I think removing Bloodthirst is healthy for the game cause people will have to come out with new ways to make melee viable instead of only invulnerability, in the other hand I do not think removing battle tactics from the marauder is a good idea they are supposed to be fast and deadly but not tanky.

Some ideas:

Revamped field control tree (for marauders)

• Passive free strong slow motion. Combined with step up could help you avoid projectiles and make you feel like you are as fast as lighting. Why free? because you need all your stamina to attack.
• back flip kick: (overlaps with Hackn'Back) kick you target doing x weapon damage and leap x tiles away from him(like disengage combined with telekinetic leap).(if you can't picture the marauder doing acrobatic feats then Slashn'Back slash your target with both weapons doing x weapon damage then jump away from him landing x tiles away).
• Crushing blow: (small you shall be my weapon) concentrate all your strength to deal a mighty blow hitting your foe for x (120%) weapon damage and sending him flying x tiles away stunning the first enemy he collides with for y turns.
• Surprise attack!: survey the terrain in a radius R preparing for combat, for each enemy that you find, gain 1% global speed(all resistance could work too) for x turns(example small number to not create a shitstorm).

I am bad at this, this is just an example I think marauder's defense should come from mobility; and his speed, and field tactics should be empathized.

[Fortescue]

I wouldn't mind sharing the new 2H Weapon Assault across multiple classes, it is less iconic (and less overpowered) than Bloodthirst. It offers a mix of damage and mobility ideal for very aggressive play, which seems like it would fit Marauder. Check the new Berserker post if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about.

[Grey]

The original Marauder design was based on an extremely mobile fighter with a few passive and sustain tricks (not so many activated attacks). A problem has always been that defence is not enough to withstand heavy damage. Perhaps more damage mitigations is necessary.

Also originally Mobility and Thuggery were Marauder-only. Now they have nothing unique.

Taking Step Up out of Tactics and putting it into a Marauder-focused tree would be good. Other ideas:
- Chaos of the Fight - A passive or sustain that gives a chance for enemy attacks and spells to hit foes adjacent to you.
- Scum of the Earth - Resists, including a hint of anti-magic.
- Opportunist - When killing an enemy you take an opportunistic attack against a nearby foe (throwing knife, dirty fighting, hack n back, disarm, etc).

I think it's wrong for the class to be equal in power to the likes of Berserker, mind. Would be nice if we still had a few challenge classes in the game instead of shoving the likes of Bloodthirst on to beef them up :P

[bpat]

Opinion: I think removing Bloodthirst is healthy for the game cause people will have to come out with new ways to make melee viable instead of only invulnerability, in the other hand I do not think removing battle tactics from the marauder is a good idea they are supposed to be fast and deadly but not tanky.

It isn't so much an issue of people not figuring out how to make melee good without invulnerability so much as melee is outright inviable on Insane and Madness without either invulnerability or other abusive tricks (Beckon, Gravity Trap, prenerf Ambuscade). If Unstoppable is removed, Marauders will need serious defensive buffs to make them viable on high difficulties. My thoughts are making Hidden Medicine also work like Second Life/Shadow Decoy, but they also need some sort of defense against mages (because mages are serious threats due to high range and damage). I'm not entirely disagreeing with you that Unstoppable doesn't fit, but they really need much more defense than they have or they'll only be playable on Normal and Nightmare.

If Unstoppable is removed and Tools of the Trade is added in the exact form that Fortescue proposed, Marauders will be weaker than Arcane Blades in both damage and defense and pretty much the only things they'll have going for them are Momentum and Skullcracker.

The original Marauder design was based on an extremely mobile fighter with a few passive and sustain tricks (not so many activated attacks). A problem has always been that defence is not enough to withstand heavy damage. Perhaps more damage mitigations is necessary.

Also originally Mobility and Thuggery were Marauder-only. Now they have nothing unique.

Taking Step Up out of Tactics and putting it into a Marauder-focused tree would be good. Other ideas:
- Chaos of the Fight - A passive or sustain that gives a chance for enemy attacks and spells to hit foes adjacent to you.
- Scum of the Earth - Resists, including a hint of anti-magic.
- Opportunist - When killing an enemy you take an opportunistic attack against a nearby foe (throwing knife, dirty fighting, hack n back, disarm, etc).

I think it's wrong for the class to be equal in power to the likes of Berserker, mind. Would be nice if we still had a few challenge classes in the game instead of shoving the likes of Bloodthirst on to beef them up

I was under the impression that Thuggery is still Marauder-only so I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to when you say they have nothing unique.

I am strongly opposed to removing Step Up from Battle Tactics since it would be a massive nerf to Bulwarks and Arcane Blades and it would completely change how they're played.

I also disagree that Marauder should be outright worse than Berserker. There is no upside to having some classes much better than others. If you want a challenge, you should play Nightmare rather than playing a class that is deliberately made to be weaker. I think it should be a goal to make all classes viable on all difficulties to give more variety to those who prefer a challenge.

[Fortescue]

I think a skill which allows sword/dagger dual wielding without needing 10 generics into the 2 masteries would be good - it's the most 'realistic' way of dual wielding, but never used in game due to the skill requirements.

The numbers on the Tools of the trade probably need tweaking (300% damage guaranteed crit on 5 turn cooldown?) but there's some good ideas in there.

I tend to aim high w/ my numbers until they've been play tested. I agree that standard 1H + Dagger would be more interesting, I will try another category design based on that concept.

[Mankeli]

It isn't so much an issue of people not figuring out how to make melee good without invulnerability so much as melee is outright inviable on Insane and Madness without either invulnerability or other abusive tricks (Beckon, Gravity Trap, prenerf Ambuscade). If Unstoppable is removed, Marauders will need serious defensive buffs to make them viable on high difficulties.

Yeah, and on a more general note, I'm not sure how melee classes in TOME 4 can be called overpowered or "broken" as long as things like Archmage, Summoners and Oozemancers exist.

(Of course, there may still be valid concerns regarding the reliance on only one talent and/or concerns about the class theme).

I would also like to keep the marauder as a melee character without too much reliance on ranged weaponry: rogue's have stealth and traps as their gimmicks, shadowblades have magic, so more brutish force melee guy with a few rogue tricks seems like a good theme IMO. I feel that marauder's fill the same desing niche in the rogue category that berserker fills in the warrior department.