Necro cleanup/re-reshuffle

[cttw]

Curse of the meek is really useful. Increasing the number of souls stored does not replace curse of the meek.

Actually if you don't see how curse of the meek is fundamental and worth the cat point by itself, you should not be redesigning necromancer.

[Razakai]

Curse of the meek is really useful. Increasing the number of souls stored does not replace curse of the meek.

Actually if you don't see how curse of the meek is fundamental and worth the cat point by itself, you should not be redesigning necromancer.

For a summoner necro sure, but for a nuker necro I never had issues with needing more souls which is what my post referred to.

[Furey]

Curse of the meek is really useful. Increasing the number of souls stored does not replace curse of the meek.

Actually if you don't see how curse of the meek is fundamental and worth the cat point by itself, you should not be redesigning necromancer.

Curse is essential for Summoner necros, and since you are positing a rework of the entire Necromancer class, then you have to consider summoners even if you only play blasters yourself...eliminating curse of the meek won't work for summoners. Minion necros (or even hybrid minion necros like I play) are unplayable on nightmare.

Even blaster necros benefit hugely from curse of the meek on nightmare. Remember that in addition to the potential soul which you may or may not need, they come into play with a taunt. Massive single target bosses who suddenly *must* target 7 other bunnies? I'll take 5-7 rounds of relaxation please and thank you.

I agree necros are point starved (the Lichdom tax alone is heinous) and some reshuffling is needed. That silly cold tree is a huge waste of points to get to Vampiric for example, and I end up point shuffling on every single boss fight, which gets really tedious.

Do necros need a big reshuffle though? I'm not sure. This is my third necro in a row on nightmare to *comfortably* get to High Peak. This when I can't seem to get a melee character out of trollmire most days :/

[SageAcrin]

Is Lichform really that bad? You get one point free, even, so it's four points, right?

Like I said, I played a Ghoul, so I couldn't take it, but it didn't seem like a big drain. It's centralizing in that you want to level it ASAP if you use it at all, but not in the amount of points it takes...

[Furey]

Is Lichform really that bad? You get one point free, even, so it's four points, right?
Like I said, I played a Ghoul, so I couldn't take it, but it didn't seem like a big drain. It's centralizing in that you want to level it ASAP if you use it at all, but not in the amount of points it takes...

Well, it means that since you played ghoul you had an extra 4 points to play with during Dreadfell. Don't get me wrong, I personally think Lichdom is worth it, but it can be a strain on the points if you are point shuffling, and they are perma-locked in (for obvious reasons).

My first clear of dreadfell I was non lich, and having the ability to swap 4 points into curse of the meek to recharge minions, and then swap them back into frostdusk was invaluable.

My second clear was as a lich, I only had 2 points to swap around (without putting some 1 point talents on cooldown). It made the fight a little tighter in resources, but improved my survivability...so....I guess either way works fine?

It's probably just preference, but I find having points to point swap very powerful on nightmare, and an early lich doesn't allow that.

[Ramanujan]

Thematically Lichdom would make a lot more sense having it's own tree.

That way it wouldn't have to be so much an oddity - breaking the level requirements etc; you could have it as an unlockable level 10+ tree.

I'd also agree that Vampiric Gift feels very odd in the grave tree. Well correction — everything else feels very odd in the _Grave_ tree. The rest of it feels like a cold spell tree. Yes the theming of each individual spell mostly fits, but the overall arc of all of the first three is cold damage.

Vampiricly themed trees would probably be enjoyed widely.
Also (if wanted to) they could be used to give the Necro a melee build option and used for monsters.

[Delmuir]

Thematically Lichdom would make a lot more sense having it's own tree.

Well, in my original "solution" I eliminated Curse of the Meek (but later looked for a way to add it back) and an entire tree.

What if we found a way to keep Curse of the Meek, eliminated the tree and replaced it with a Lichdom tree? Blurred Mortality is a perfect fit, obviously, but what other skills would that tree have?

If you made it an entire tree, you'd have to make point investments in that tree worthwhile. You could make each skill have a Lichform benefit, which would buff the Lichform significantly. That wouldn't be such a bad idea given that it would come at the expense of having another tree.

[Delmuir]

Curse of the meek is really useful. Increasing the number of souls stored does not replace curse of the meek.

Actually if you don't see how curse of the meek is fundamental and worth the cat point by itself, you should not be redesigning necromancer.

I do see that it's worth it. It just shouldn't be. It's bad design.

Is the Necromancer playable? Sure. It's a decent enough class but it's awkward, clumsy, and inefficient. Some classes are very well designed in my opinion but I think the Necromancer could use a bit of cleanup.

I'm not hostile to criticism nor do I think my solutions are the only viable ones or even necessarily the best. However, I'm baffled by anyone who thinks the class couldn't use a bit of a redesign both in terms of gameplay and in terms of thematic coherency.

[Nizidra]

Curse of the meek is really useful. Increasing the number of souls stored does not replace curse of the meek.

Actually if you don't see how curse of the meek is fundamental and worth the cat point by itself, you should not be redesigning necromancer.

I do see that it's worth it. It just shouldn't be. It's bad design.

Is the Necromancer playable? Sure. It's a decent enough class but it's awkward, clumsy, and inefficient. Some classes are very well designed in my opinion but I think the Necromancer could use a bit of cleanup.

I'm not hostile to criticism nor do I think my solutions are the only viable ones or even necessarily the best. However, I'm baffled by anyone who thinks the class couldn't use a bit of a redesign both in terms of gameplay and in terms of thematic coherency.

Not all classes should be efficient and/or streamlined. Different Classes for different people and different challenges.

I'd personally swap Frost dusk with Vampiric Gift, but keep level/magic requirement high for Frost Dusk to avoid early acquirement. Thats about all that needs to be changed on Necro.

[Delmuir]

Not all classes should be efficient and/or streamlined. Different Classes for different people and different challenges.

I'd personally swap Frost dusk with Vampiric Gift, but keep level/magic requirement high for Frost Dusk to avoid early acquirement. Thats about all that needs to be changed on Necro.

No, perhaps not in every sense but they should be as efficient as possible for desired gameplay outcome. I do think the Necromancer is somewhat poorly constructed at the moment towards that end. I understand how the class is supposed to play and I've played it quite a bit. It could just do it better without changing the balance of it.

For the most part, all of the skills can remain the same except we can move them around.

As for Frosdusk being the only problem… what about Assemble and Sacrifice? That's a three turn combo that doesn't do anything of note in three turns (and more resources) more than displacement shield does in one. I've taken a Necro to the end of the game (never won with one) three different times and have never, ever had call to use that skill. I've toyed with it and even maxed it. It's just not a good combo as far as I can assess.

[Mewtarthio]

I don't think it's meant to be a combo per se. I think the theory is that you use your Bone Giant to tank heavy blows, and then use Sacrifice when that isn't enough (eg when the Bone Giant is about to die, or when an enemy Corrupter is targeting you and you can't get out of the line of fire). In practice, the Advanced Necrotic Minions tree in general needs a lot of tweaking, but the solution there is to make the tree more valuable, not to throw everything out except a single obvious build.

[cttw]

Also, currently necromancer is very powerful, and one of the easiest wins. While I agree some things can be improved, one must take care not to make it too overpowered.

The advanced tree should be taken out and shot, yeah. I don't think I like a single skill there.

[Delmuir]

Mewt,
I know it's not supposed to be a combo per se but it still serves virtually no value. Why destroy a bone golem, even one that is about to die, when you could instead spend that turn casting displacement shield and still have the golem so that little bit more damage? Is it a solution to a problem? Sure, would you really say that it's a good solution?

I realize that there are a few situations in which it could be valuable but not many.

Cttw,
I agree that it is very important not to overpower the Necromancer (and I think my solutions would not overpower) but I'm not sure what you mean by "one of the easiest to win with."

Is it easier than an Archmage? Summoner? Corruptor? Anorithil? Maurader? Oozemancer? Solipsist? That's 7/18 that I'd pick as easier than a Necromancer to win with, largely because I've never been able to win with one. I've taken three to the high peak but couldn't finish either.

Ultimately, these points merge nicely. We can move around some skills, merge two into one, and redo an entire tree. Why? Because the class isn't fun to play. If you want to nuke, then the Archamge is superior but almost identical in gameplay. If you want to use minions then it's much more interesting but weaker and much, much clumsier and incoherent than a summoner.

I see no reason why the class can't be cleaned up and I can't fathom the devotion to the status quo. Maybe I'm wrong and it's a damn near perfectly balanced and organized class with delightful gameplay. It sure doesn't feel that way when I play it though. It's frustrating and clumsy and just plays like two other classes only worse. I'd like it to play like its own unique class and I think it's close to doing so.

[The Revanchist]

I'm inclined to agree. A minion-necro is a clumsy summoner, and a nuke-necro is a Cold and Darkness only Archmage. And I don't know how effective a hybrid-necro tends to be...

As far as flavour goes, it seems like a Necromancer going for early-lichform should be point-starved. Power at a price, and all that. And even if they aren't, Delmuir's proposition isn't going to eliminate point-shortages.

[HousePet]

Hybrid is the way to go.