Making the Breeding Pits Less Disgusting

[The Revanchist]

It would seem we now think rehumanizing the Orcs is a good thing to strive for. The best way, presumably, it to give them more Lore. And not the "racial analysis" sort, which, frankly, I thought was comically prejudiced. (That was probably it's intention so... I mission accomplished?)

The best place would likely be in the East, or perhaps down in Reknor, where Orcs are still alive.

I think the biggest problem for them to be sympathetic lore-wise is simply that every race hates them, and constantly demonizes them. And from what I understand, they've got more important things to do than laud their heroics. Like surviving.

I don't know how the rest of you would react, but perhaps making the child Orcs... children would be a good idea? At the very least, have some actual Orclings thrown in, necessary for the achievement.

[Grey]

It would seem we now think rehumanizing the Orcs is a good thing to strive for. The best way, presumably, it to give them more Lore. And not the "racial analysis" sort, which, frankly, I thought was comically prejudiced. (That was probably it's intention so... I mission accomplished?)

Mission accomplished indeed. And there is already the orc history and Garkul series of lores. They are the most lorified race by a mile. Maybe part of the problem is that people are doing the Pits before they see all that lore.

[Grakor456]

And there is already the orc history and Garkul series of lores. They are the most lorified race by a mile. Maybe part of the problem is that people are doing the Pits before they see all that lore.

Yeah, I don't think the lore is the problem. It's pretty hard to argue when the orcs claim self-defense in most of their wars.

Really, the best thing (that would take a ton of work) would be implementing orcs as playable in the main campaign and/or offer that alternate path to side with them instead of the celestials that's hinted at but isn't actually possible. I dunno if there are plans to make that a thing alongside the upcoming orc campaign, but I really think it should be. It'd help make them sympathetic by showing things from their perspective more clearly.

[SageAcrin]

Had a request from DarkGod to post some possible ideas for alternates, so I will.

(I mean no offense when I say I'm tired of the topic and that's why I'm not addressing presumably excellent points brought up to my last post; It's a very intense discussion that I honestly feel more on an intellectual level than on a personal one, and it's draining to argue something that I don't feel strongly about. Apologies.)

A: Simple removal tied to the censorship is an option, but that's kinda boring and really feels like straight up censorship.

B: Alteration and censorship of the concept(Orc Mothers to vines, etc). Again, this is kinda censorship-y and boring.

C: An alternate version of the dungeon that lacks the imagery, that would be the only version to come up if the censorship option is on. This is the most interesting way to do things, so I'll try to come up with some ideas for this.

-Simple alternate version; Area is already destroyed when you get there, by the Sunwall. The pits could be simple, largely open areas with few walls, the initial room blasted open and empty, filled with random monsters and lore talking about how hopeless the situation is for the Orcs, and how doomed their race is.

A simple boss-a maddened Orc in charge of the facility, perhaps, with Corruptor and Mindslayer skills, someone who knew how to care for and take care of the Mothers but just happened to not be present for your rampage, who drops rambling and saddening lore about the future of his people.

-More complex alternate version, the area is destroyed when you get there, but by its own problems.

Several thoughts possible here.

First one is that the area could become overly corrupted-as I understand it, Corruption is utilized to keep the Mothers cared for. Perhaps the magic goes awry; Rather than Orc Mothers, you have instead a mass of flesh that makes up the entire area. Twisted, narrow corridors in a tight passageway space(Rather like a tiny version of the old Maze layout) made of flesh, orcs mutated into shambling abominations, the front passage a distubing melange of flesh and stone but still guarded by desperate Orcs.

The interesting thing about this is that it's sort of got the same effect as the vines; You can easily have the area have horrible abominations that look nothing like Orcs, but produce Orcs that look and act relatively normal, causing the Orcs to defend what is obviously becoming an increasingly dangerous problem, so that their race may survive. In a way, it's actually a more extreme version of the current layout.. but one more mentally acceptable because it's more extreme and dehumanizing.

The only problem I have with this is that I'm not entirely sure it's divergent enough. I think it is, I'm just not sure. So some feedback might be necessary.

Second one was the first idea that came to mind; The various Mothers suffering generates a force of hatred so strong and so focused that their wills merge, forming a horrifying mental projection. Its first action is to destroy the bodies that are causing its suffering-and everyone that supported that suffering, consuming their knowledge and wills into it.

The second? To hold the Orcish race hostage. It alone now knows all the techniques that led to the Mothers creation, and has refined them to simple spells capable of generating young Orcs from any living material-but it also wants to make everyone that led to its creation to suffer, and to feed it hatred so that it can sustain its self. It hates its creators, but it can't just mow down an army.

So they strike a deal. For every Orc it is allowed to torture slowly to death, it will give them one new Orc. The weak, the sick, the aging, come here.

In a way, it's even more disturbing than the current setup. Aging, wounded and sickly versions of various Orcs could be present in the dungeon-now a shattered stone husk of its former self, with small buildings full of Orcs. The Vilemother(tenative off the top of my head name) would be a Doomed/Corruptor boss that would end the race just as surely as the current Genocide. And it's somehow even darker than the current version, overall.

Thoughts?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Grey, I'd say you're doing the dark stuff fairly well. You live up to your name. I felt bad about doing the necromancer stuff in the graveyard, though I did it anyway. I've said many times there should be an option to leave her and their child in peace. Or at least save the child somehow. I wouldn't feel so bad doing the quest then.

As for people reading a scroll of genocide with no problem, It's because they just see the nethack (or ragnarok, or anything else with genocide) game as a distant game. They're becoming far more invested in ToME, with the result that these things hit harder, and closer to home. They're drawn closer to the game by being more intensively involved in it. On that note, Good job! (You and Darkgod both.)

And I really think it's more the 'disgusting' part of the game that bothers people. Mother descriptions mainly, though that's the part that screams over the top. I'd be fine with the rest, though some modifications about how vicious and aggressive these so called 'babies' are could help soothe doubts about the rest.

[IvenGray]

Two of my favorite proposals till now:

Anyway, I wouldn't mind hearing more feedback on this. I've suggested to DarkGod that the zone be changed into an encounter with a paladin with the following dialogue options:

1: I will go myself and ensure this is thoroughly dealt with.
2: I cannot do this myself... I will tell Aeryn about it, it is in her hands.
3: You want me to kill mothers and children? This is barbaric, I'll have nothing to do with it!

-Simple alternate version; Area is already destroyed when you get there, by the Sunwall. The pits could be simple, largely open areas with few walls, the initial room blasted open and empty, filled with random monsters and lore talking about how hopeless the situation is for the Orcs, and how doomed their race is.

A simple boss-a maddened Orc in charge of the facility, perhaps, with Corruptor and Mindslayer skills, someone who knew how to care for and take care of the Mothers but just happened to not be present for your rampage, who drops rambling and saddening lore about the future of his people.

I cherish the idea that the pathetic and disgusting things in the breeding pits exist as harsh facts in the Eyal world. Terrible things surely can happen in the world, but people don't have to get involved. It's good to give players desirable options to shun them. Let them skip the zone if they find it disgusting. The reward from Aeryn should compensate to a large extent, making clearing the zone unnecessary for winning the game.

As for the extinction of the orc race, I guess it's almost inevitable in the current story frame. For people who have particular moral concern on the issue, we can explicitly deprive them of the ability to determine the survival of the orc, thereby to save them from the guilt. The genocide inevitably happens. If players wouldn not conduct it, sunwall would. And on some conditions, sunwall can even do the job before players need to think about the issue.

[dis astranagant]

I think a lot of people are missing the point pretty badly. The slaughter of women and children, while an issue, isn't really what people are complaining about. It's the pointlessly graphic flavor text that at best adds nothing and at worst makes you think someone wrote the fluff for the mothers one handed.

[Zonk]

Premise: Very long post, I feel this is an important discussion. I do believe some people are put off by this and it's a shame, although it seems so odd to me that the main/firstcomplaints would come from a site called 'Something Awful'...I can understand the 'not kid friendly' complaints, though I think having 'censored' and 'uncut' versions of the game would be a bit sad.

3: You want me to kill mothers and children? This is barbaric, I'll have nothing to do with it!

very likely makes the character sound hypocritical if they have killed mothers and children of other, intelligent non-humanoid species(again, dragons, and some other things might count too).
This is not a criticism of that proposal by the way(which I think has potential) - just a comment.
'Mothers and childrens' sounds quite rhetoric to me when the mothers and children can be dangerous, not-innocent and, most important of all, aggressive. Of course, it's the *player character* saying that, so it might make sense.

IMHO, the whole 'sympathy for the orcs'/'make them human' thing can be interesting, and the lore is good, but I feel it can also be overdone.
The lore on them IS interesting, and the campaign will be, but it *seems* to me as if some would prefer if orcs were 'just' a green-skinned, burly human ethic group...which they are not meant to be, one hopes.

I mean, there's mention of re-humanizing or de-humanizing orcs, but orcs were never human to begin with (unless I missed something BIG in the lore).
They could have a very different psychology/mind from humans and the other races, although of course the lore does make them sound fairly similar - we have at least an instance of an orc showing empathy for the mothers' blight, for example.
Someone has mentioned making orcs into a kind of 'pod/vat people'.
While inhuman, I wouldn't like that because it feels a bit too gimmicky considering this discussion. All other things being equal being born from pods or vats wouldn't make them less of a 'people'(even if a possibly evil one, anyway).
Also it *might* require changing some existing lore, I think - as there's mention of orcs having fertility cults of sort from what I remember, and that, I think, makes much more sense with 'generic' sexual reproduction.

You can also still have orcs be very human-like, but they *ones you actually kill* are evil/nasty enough to justify the killing, and again for the orc-mothers and orc-children there's the 'they're altered/dangerous/mercy' argument.
Preventing the orc species from continuing may sound sad and nasty(and something best avoided!), but IF you find the killing done in the pits acceptable(and again, arguments are provided) well, that's it.
It's not like you are are actually killing hypothetical(or not so hypothetical, again, there's a 'hidden' orc pride) innocent orcs elsewhere, or hunting them down 'just because they're nasty orcs'.

Sidetrack: I feel Zigur/antimagic comes much closer to a 'real' moral dilemma, even if it is (perhaps BECAUSE) much more removed from real world history. We are shown 'good', neutral and evil/corrupted magic, and we have the Spellblaze and thus it feels somewhat understandable to me that some might lump together all magic as being dangerous or corrupting, even if there doesn't seem to be any real risk of the player causing disasters/corruption through magic(if they started as a non-Defiler class).


I DO agree the intentional use of the 'Genocide' achievement term perhaps wasn't a good idea.
In addition to not being quite true (though perhaps at the time the 'other' orcs weren't yet planned), it seems to me as if it's meant to provoke a strong reaction in the player by associating the act to real-world genocides...which simply doesn't fit what the player's doing in game and seems manipulative to me in an 'off' way.

As for people reading a scroll of genocide with no problem, It's because they just see the nethack (or ragnarok, or anything else with genocide) game as a distant game.

Trivia: In Angband, the 'genocide' effect was renamed to 'banishment', and people complaining about the term MAY have been a reason. So there might be a precedent.


For the area itself, I *DO* agree the graphicalness could be turned somewhat down, both tile and text wise - gotta say that some super long descriptions feel out of place, not just here, but it's more of a consistency than 'grossn'ess issue. I think the basic concept should stay though.

And again - loot removed. Up loot somewhere else to compensate, maybe.
But unless the mothers are 'altered' enough to give birth to magic items(or receive 'gifts', but that's stretching it), why would they drop stuff? Yes, giving the PC proper equipment is important, but so are thematics!


If you still want to make orcs more 'sympathetic'/make the player feel less guilty AFTER the Pits: what about having a group of refugee/'good' orcs who you can see fleeing away(with some unaltered females perhaps, who would be described as such to the player) and chose to let leave/kill? Have their leader say something about starting a new life far away, maybe name-drop the hidden Orc Pride. You could also add some orcs who 'give up'/turn neutral in the Prides once they realize the fight is lost (or if you do something to show them mercy).


Also, though this might be for another thread, if people actually want a kid-friendly/PG/ version, I'm wondering what other things should be censored/altered other than the Pits, and if 'censorship' just means removing or completely altering the way they look graphically/text wise without changing mechanics.
Melinda, obviously. Some of the nastiest-looking horrors, perhaps? All/most instances of body-horrors outside the Pits, with PERHAPS the exception of undead which seem to be so much part of pop culture these days that most people might be 'immune' to them?

[Grey]

Serious games are not for children. I don't get why children are even being discussed here. It's an utterly irrelevant aside for ToME.

[Sirrocco]

Serious games are not for children. I don't get why children are even being discussed here. It's an utterly irrelevant aside for ToME.

Who it is for, and who actually plays it, are two different things. Given that TOME is one of the higher-quality games available for free on the internet, we have to expect that it will be a draw for people who have internet access and no money. Thus, we must expect that at least some of the layers will be below whatever arbitrary age of majority you set.

I think a lot of people are missing the point pretty badly. The slaughter of women and children, while an issue, isn't really what people are complaining about. It's the pointlessly graphic flavor text that at best adds nothing and at worst makes you think someone wrote the fluff for the mothers one handed.

This.

[Seian Verian]

I'm gonna second children being irrelevant here. The game isn't aimed at them, and there are plenty of other things they can find too that people don't like children seeing. It's impossible to shield children from everything that can possibly be unpleasant/disgusting/dark/sexual without sheltering them so much that it stunts their development anyway.

[Davion Fuxa]

I figured this is an active discussion worth chiming in on.

First: I consider the Orc Breeding Pits for all it's worth to be the best Lore Driven area in game. To focus specifically on the Breeding Pit Lore, if none of the other Lore in the game caught your eye then the Lore here just might. Compared to many other games the Lore presented is Unique while being very close in feel to what Tales of Maj'Eyal is tries to portray theme wise. Some people might not and this may be a failing aspect for them in the game - this is fine as the game shouldn't have to cater to everyone.

If people find it disgusting and revolting then it is worth noting that they are suppose to find the situation revolting and disgusting. If they don't want to play the game because of its inclusion then I don't think it should be seen as an issue - most good games are going to have a certain aspect to it that people aren't going to like it for. I remember Dungeons & Dragons Unlimited for example adding in a lot of content a while back like Clan Shrines and such that really ruined the gameplay quite a bit for me and I slowly stopped playing; but I don't think it is a terrible game either because of it and many players liked it enough.

Second: If changes do come then I would think that the nature of the Orc Breeding Pits should remain the same as it fits perfectly into the game theme wise. For the most part most interesting enemies have interesting descriptions and the Orc Breeding Pit should be no exception - some of us like interesting descriptions. Additionally, it is a real play on the Lore because it wouldn't feel so terrible if the Orcs were to have clones or abominations or something else replacing them.

Some people might not find it politically correct, 'on the beaten path', kosher, or what have you. That's fine, so long as they aren't getting up and arms about it and looking to shut the game down. It's okay for a game to have a little controversy (Binding of Issac anyone?) The game shouldn't try and go for a sort of loosely based or dry themed orientation since its a progressive story type of rogue-like.

Third: On the topic of kids playing the game, there likely isn't anything Darkgod can do about that - and even if they do play they are just as likely to turn censorship off (censorship is for grownups don't you know, cool kids don't do censorship). Fact is that kids can access anything that we likely wouldn't like them to that is free and it is an establish fact that it is the parents job to look after what their kids do (I'll admit to watching 'you know what' when underage for example, and these days it is even easier with up to hour long videos!).

.... Alright, I can't go and say the Darkgod shouldn't have to worry about kid's playing his game. Second Fact is that it would completely legitimize a cigarette company for example and it is almost entirely in the same context. Kids are everyone's responsibility and like it or not you have to think of the children. But ultimately it is the risk of the internet that kids left unintended are going to mosey on into whatever they get themselves into and their really isn't much anyone can do about that. This is probably better too then a lot of what's out there as well in any case....

[SageAcrin]

I don't recall any large "This game may have content disturbing to young players." warnings on this game. Or, for that matter, any warnings at all.

It'd be a shame to have that be the required answer, for one dungeon, when there's other options.

(The only other really disturbing content is in some of the obscure lore and some extremely obscured nudity. I've seen content I considered more disturbing in T rated games, whereas the disgust factor of the Pits I haven't even seen in an M rated game that I can recall, so...)

Anything less than large bootscreen warnings is bound to, sooner or later, have an angry parent ranting somewhere.

Also, to be clear, the alternates I'm describing do all basically keep the lore content and concept of the Breeding Pits, in all cases. They just don't make it be on screen, and are optional at that.

Also, they make for potentially interesting alternates to a rather simple area, and I like alternate dungeons.

[Davion Fuxa]

I think Melinda being carved up like a turkey with religious symbols and then dripping blood in the escape, or Celia's use of Necromancy in regards to her pregnancy, or just the generally suggestive genocide and slaughter of the four orc encampments, general witchcraft and racial tendencies found in the main continent of Maj'Eyal, and whatever else all already entail a potential warning perhaps being made. Really one could make an argument that what is feature in ToME is on par with say Diablo or Doom if you really want.

I'd say just slap the Mature Content warning on the game; the removal or change of the Orc Breeding Pits isn't going to stop the need for it if it is desired.

Speaking about other games as much as I have in this thread, I'd also note that even though they clothed the Succubus in Diablo II and III, I still prefer the unclothed versions from the original. The reason for this is that they add to the atmosphere along with the big scary demons you encounter and the Hellish spawned walls you find near the end. It's one of the things that separated the slow exploratory nature into the horrors below of Diablo from that of its successor which were all mass slaughter as you chase after the fleeing horrors.

Coming back to the Breeding Pits, one thing that can be noted about the disgusting tidbits - they give the desired effect of the horrible situation the Orcs have pretty well been forced into; and now your character is of course immersed in the situation. The Lore for the area in an of itself doesn't drive home how horrible the situation is without it since it more or less talks about the 'seeds' of the experiment while you are really overlooking the 'fruits' that the seeds yielded.

Anyhow, to help you with your aftermath alternative, maybe change it so the the Orcish Breeding pits features a lone npc orc called 'Captain Gumlarat' with a defeated air to him. Have it so that he tells you the aftermath of what happened after he found Korbek's body and diverges the imagery as requested (with suitable warnings and prodding), and then whatever else (boss fight, npcs defense fight, whatever). Could also have it so he could give you some prologue information about the Orcs in the west as well. An alternative to this could be a Sun Paladin being there to tell you everything he saw and how he can't put the horrifying images out of his mind.

[darkgod]

Maybe said sun paladin was driven made and is now a sunpaladin/doomed attacking everything