New Class Idea: Chromaticist

[The Revanchist]

Sounds pretty cool. I'd guess a tier 2-3 ability.

If we use saturation zones, I'm thinking, then, that we'll use them to a full and wide degree.

[malboro_urchin]

Sounds pretty cool. I'd guess a tier 2-3 ability.

If we use saturation zones, I'm thinking, then, that we'll use them to a full and wide degree.

I'd wholeheartedly agree with tier 2/3. I've leveled many characters through various degrees of completion in the West, only to get them brutally destroyed by 1) my impatience or 2) the Master or 3) any and all combinations and/or permutations of the above, and I feel it's safe for me to say that tier 2/3 is where such a single-target ability would very much come in handy. Before that point, AoE tends to be (hopefully) plentiful, and enough damage for both single targets and AoE. For those used to ToME & its mechanics, it's not exactly a Herculean feat to reach level 8 (unless you're playing Yeek, in which case reaching level 8 is a feat more in line with Odysseus' feats of cunning and willpower, rather than Hercules' strength and constitution)

So now I feel that saturation zones will be this class's defining feature, which I can't say I've seen amongst the classes I've played. I see a few ways you could simply organize/set up your talent trees here:

1) A talent tree per enemy target/situation; that is, one tree for various single target effects (a nuke, a debuff, a DoT), one for multiple targets, etc. With this option, each tier could be one of your colors, maybe? It could be structured so that you unlock various degrees of power and utility with a new color's DoT/single-target-nuke/etc.
2) A talent tree per type of effect; that is, a tree for debuffs and/or DoTs, a tree for nukes, etc.
3) A talent tree per color; each color can be given its own specialty, possibly as I've written above (maybe one color is the single target talent line, or one color specializes in straight-up damage, or each color has its own damage type, I leave this to you, dear reader)

No matter how you slice it, I think all of these abilities should be based around the concept of saturation fields, which I am imagining as the Tidal Wave effect, or the Oozing Horror slow effect; an overlay of color.

Debuffs that are attached to saturation fields can either be passives or sustains. I prefer sustains, as the attached cost allows for putting greater power behind the debuffs.

I think it would be interesting to have DoTs that consume your saturation field to affect a limited amount of targets, a number that increases as you level. Having the DoTs scale based on how many targets your affecting and possibly their mob rank, I think, could be interesting design space to explore. I chose mob rank because you're usually faced with swarms of whites or one to three rares or so. The targeting could work the way it does for the Earthen Missiles, except it wouldn't be a bolt (ie you cast the DoT, and can choose a maximum amount of targets, just make it clear in the description how the player can choose to only target one or a few enemies).

For effects that can partially target a group, one possibility is to make it so that the mob(s) you target is(are) exempt from the field; that is, the space they occupy (which changes as they move, obviously) no longer has the color overlay, indicating that the saturation field no longer affects the mob(s). There's definitely a balance concern here: should a use of a saturation zone (whether that be for a nuke, a DoT, or whatever other crazy-awesome out-of-the-box idea that you guys can come up with) consume the entire zone, or should it merely disable the zone's inherent sustained debuff ability from affecting the mobs that the saturation consumption effect just hit?

Thoughts?

[The Revanchist]

I'd wholeheartedly agree with tier 2/3. I've leveled many characters through various degrees of completion in the West, only to get them brutally destroyed by 1) my impatience or 2) the Master or 3) any and all combinations and/or permutations of the above, and I feel it's safe for me to say that tier 2/3 is where such a single-target ability would very much come in handy. Before that point, AoE tends to be (hopefully) plentiful, and enough damage for both single targets and AoE. For those used to ToME & its mechanics, it's not exactly a Herculean feat to reach level 8 (unless you're playing Yeek, in which case reaching level 8 is a feat more in line with Odysseus' feats of cunning and willpower, rather than Hercules' strength and constitution)

Pretty solid rationale. Wonder how it'll be broken up...

So now I feel that saturation zones will be this class's defining feature, which I can't say I've seen amongst the classes I've played. I see a few ways you could simply organize/set up your talent trees here:

1) A talent tree per enemy target/situation; that is, one tree for various single target effects (a nuke, a debuff, a DoT), one for multiple targets, etc. With this option, each tier could be one of your colors, maybe? It could be structured so that you unlock various degrees of power and utility with a new color's DoT/single-target-nuke/etc.
2) A talent tree per type of effect; that is, a tree for debuffs and/or DoTs, a tree for nukes, etc.
3) A talent tree per color; each color can be given its own specialty, possibly as I've written above (maybe one color is the single target talent line, or one color specializes in straight-up damage, or each color has its own damage type, I leave this to you, dear reader)

No matter how you slice it, I think all of these abilities should be based around the concept of saturation fields, which I am imagining as the Tidal Wave effect, or the Oozing Horror slow effect; an overlay of color.

I'm not fully certain myself, here. It's a bit to consider.
I do believe there will be a "flavour" for each color though.
Either every ability ties in, or at least the great majority.

Debuffs that are attached to saturation fields can either be passives or sustains. I prefer sustains, as the attached cost allows for putting greater power behind the debuffs.

Sustains, most likely. For some, I might even try timed activations.

I think it would be interesting to have DoTs that consume your saturation field to affect a limited amount of targets, a number that increases as you level. Having the DoTs scale based on how many targets your affecting and possibly their mob rank, I think, could be interesting design space to explore. I chose mob rank because you're usually faced with swarms of whites or one to three rares or so. The targeting could work the way it does for the Earthen Missiles, except it wouldn't be a bolt (ie you cast the DoT, and can choose a maximum amount of targets, just make it clear in the description how the player can choose to only target one or a few enemies).

For effects that can partially target a group, one possibility is to make it so that the mob(s) you target is(are) exempt from the field; that is, the space they occupy (which changes as they move, obviously) no longer has the color overlay, indicating that the saturation field no longer affects the mob(s). There's definitely a balance concern here: should a use of a saturation zone (whether that be for a nuke, a DoT, or whatever other crazy-awesome out-of-the-box idea that you guys can come up with) consume the entire zone, or should it merely disable the zone's inherent sustained debuff ability from affecting the mobs that the saturation consumption effect just hit?

Thoughts?

Do you mean similar to how a Summoner summons more with a higher level?
I can just see a situation where not giving selected targetting would bite us. Two words: Luminous. Horror.
I'm reasonably certain something will scale, besides damage. Whether it's size, duration, or potency, I don't know.

[malboro_urchin]

I think it would be interesting to have DoTs that consume your saturation field to affect a limited amount of targets, a number that increases as you level. Having the DoTs scale based on how many targets your affecting and possibly their mob rank, I think, could be interesting design space to explore. I chose mob rank because you're usually faced with swarms of whites or one to three rares or so. The targeting could work the way it does for the Earthen Missiles, except it wouldn't be a bolt (ie you cast the DoT, and can choose a maximum amount of targets, just make it clear in the description how the player can choose to only target one or a few enemies).

For effects that can partially target a group, one possibility is to make it so that the mob(s) you target is(are) exempt from the field; that is, the space they occupy (which changes as they move, obviously) no longer has the color overlay, indicating that the saturation field no longer affects the mob(s). There's definitely a balance concern here: should a use of a saturation zone (whether that be for a nuke, a DoT, or whatever other crazy-awesome out-of-the-box idea that you guys can come up with) consume the entire zone, or should it merely disable the zone's inherent sustained debuff ability from affecting the mobs that the saturation consumption effect just hit?

Thoughts?

Do you mean similar to how a Summoner summons more with a higher level?
I can just see a situation where not giving selected targetting would bite us. Two words: Luminous. Horror.
I'm reasonably certain something will scale, besides damage. Whether it's size, duration, or potency, I don't know.

When I meant 'as you level,' I intended that to mean 'with talent level,' and I somehow believed that everyone and their mother would read my mind. Other than that, yeah, I enjoy multi targeting as a gameplay mechanic; it gives me a bit more tactical dimensions to play around with (hmm, that last bloated horror's sitting pretty at 3hp, so he can go down with one shot easily enough; however, my combined damage from all three bolts might be enough to take out the oozing horror that just showed up. Is it worth the gamble?). The reason I like selective targeting is that it increases the possibilities of what you can do with your base saturation zone debuffs. Since an enemy that's targeted with a zone consumption effect is likely to be taking damage as a direct result of using a zone-consuming ability, it's probably fair to weaken or remove the debuff that mob receives from being in the saturated zone. With partial/multi-targeting, we are now able to choose a few mobs to receive the damage, thus we can be selective about who to debuff and who to damage. Note that I'm using instantaneous damage, like an alchemist's bombs, as an example here because this is all theoretical design, and instantaneous damage is simpler. In reality, this could be a DoT that does much more damage than a nuke, with the caveat that it's over time and can be dispelled/purged, or it could be a stronger debuff (a malus to mind/spellpower could get upgraded to silence or brainlock, a malus to attack and defense could get upgraded to stun and/or off-balance, etc).

As far as scaling, damage should definitely scale. This seems like a DoT/attrition/zoning kind of class, and those obviously don't work without damage. I'm personally a big fan of area scaling; it really makes me feel like my character is growing and progressing. However, there does come a point where one really doesn't need all that much area. Perhaps this could be solved with another mechanic I really like, the Alchemist's Explosives Expert (iirc) talent. Y'know, the one that basically concentrates the effect of the bomb depending on how little space is actually available.

[The Revanchist]

When I meant 'as you level,' I intended that to mean 'with talent level,' and I somehow believed that everyone and their mother would read my mind. Other than that, yeah, I enjoy multi targeting as a gameplay mechanic; it gives me a bit more tactical dimensions to play around with (hmm, that last bloated horror's sitting pretty at 3hp, so he can go down with one shot easily enough; however, my combined damage from all three bolts might be enough to take out the oozing horror that just showed up. Is it worth the gamble?). The reason I like selective targeting is that it increases the possibilities of what you can do with your base saturation zone debuffs. Since an enemy that's targeted with a zone consumption effect is likely to be taking damage as a direct result of using a zone-consuming ability, it's probably fair to weaken or remove the debuff that mob receives from being in the saturated zone. With partial/multi-targeting, we are now able to choose a few mobs to receive the damage, thus we can be selective about who to debuff and who to damage. Note that I'm using instantaneous damage, like an alchemist's bombs, as an example here because this is all theoretical design, and instantaneous damage is simpler. In reality, this could be a DoT that does much more damage than a nuke, with the caveat that it's over time and can be dispelled/purged, or it could be a stronger debuff (a malus to mind/spellpower could get upgraded to silence or brainlock, a malus to attack and defense could get upgraded to stun and/or off-balance, etc).

That's fair reasoning. And with our emphasis on attrition, it might become more a gamble of "really cripple this one strong enemy" and "deter a bunch of these enemies simultaneously". Having talents become much more useful with level is preferable, too. Investment ought to pay off.

As far as scaling, damage should definitely scale. This seems like a DoT/attrition/zoning kind of class, and those obviously don't work without damage. I'm personally a big fan of area scaling; it really makes me feel like my character is growing and progressing. However, there does come a point where one really doesn't need all that much area. Perhaps this could be solved with another mechanic I really like, the Alchemist's Explosives Expert (iirc) talent. Y'know, the one that basically concentrates the effect of the bomb depending on how little space is actually available.

I absolutely love when a rogue manages to poison, bleed or get another DoT attack off on me, and it does about 1.3 damage per turn. It's adorable, really. But when that other enemy gets a DoT that deals 88 damage per turn... It's less adorable.
I like that talent too, and it would probably find use here. That way we can have graceful expansion of their zones, but with some talent points, it becomes much more useful, at the cost of whatever else they could enhance/unlock.

[Sirrocco]

wacky mechanic idea... zones that start wide and weak, then concentrate as they tick. So, for example, you could have a four-tick attack. First tick hits a 7x7 area. Second tick hits a 5x5, 3rd a 3x3, and final tick hits the one square in the center. As they move in, they deal more and more damage - so if you can somehow manage to stick the foe in place for four turns, you can do a *lot* of damage with a single cast, but if he manages to get out of the focused danger zone in the middle, it does a lot less in total. Would probably work best as part of an unlockable tree.

[TheSlayer]

I think you still need a defining mechanic to justify the class in game terms. My suggestion is that you cause abilities and effects (or at least damage) to have a relevant color. And your primary 3 colors should cause slight negative scaling effects in each other. So, let's say R-G-B or whatever. If you max all red trees and avoid blue and green, you'd get 100% immunity to red-related effects and +40% damage and some affinity to red damage type.

This means that you might be immune to, say, pinning, and have +40% damage to whatever is red(fire?), +13% damage to light (because it is all colors), 50% resistance to gravitational and distortion effects, and some bonus to other damage types related to "red". This would necessitate putting all damage types on a color wheel and thus creating "polarities". However, you'd also have -x% damage (and resistance?) to damage types directly related to the trees you neglected (each point in red trees is changing your "chromatist" effect by adding to red affinity and subtracting a lesser amount from blue and green affinities).

The overall effect should be that you have more variety in builds than any other class. I could be a fire-spewing, fire-invulnerable creature who has to stack resistance to other elements to compensate my over specialization, with bonuses to whatever the other red-related abilities are, or try to be middle-of- the-road and end up with 40% of max bonuses in all 3. Does this make sense to anyone?

[The Revanchist]

It makes sense to this person. And a good deal of sense at that.

The biggest thing with that'd be making sure every color is balanced, and desirable when compared to every other.

[malboro_urchin]

I think you still need a defining mechanic to justify the class in game terms. My suggestion is that you cause abilities and effects (or at least damage) to have a relevant color. And your primary 3 colors should cause slight negative scaling effects in each other. So, let's say R-G-B or whatever. If you max all red trees and avoid blue and green, you'd get 100% immunity to red-related effects and +40% damage and some affinity to red damage type.

This means that you might be immune to, say, pinning, and have +40% damage to whatever is red(fire?), +13% damage to light (because it is all colors), 50% resistance to gravitational and distortion effects, and some bonus to other damage types related to "red". This would necessitate putting all damage types on a color wheel and thus creating "polarities". However, you'd also have -x% damage (and resistance?) to damage types directly related to the trees you neglected (each point in red trees is changing your "chromatist" effect by adding to red affinity and subtracting a lesser amount from blue and green affinities).

The overall effect should be that you have more variety in builds than any other class. I could be a fire-spewing, fire-invulnerable creature who has to stack resistance to other elements to compensate my over specialization, with bonuses to whatever the other red-related abilities are, or try to be middle-of- the-road and end up with 40% of max bonuses in all 3. Does this make sense to anyone?

+1

This makes perfect sense to me as well, and judging by /u/The Revanchist's replies to some of the things I said, it sounds like a very desirable design goal for this class

[Sirrocco]

You don't think "damage fields, DOTs, and debuffs" are enough of a defining mechanic? Sure they aren't unique, but not every class needs to have a unique mechanic. I'd actually suggest considering making all damage radiant - or if you need multiple damage types (which I can understand) at least don't go as simple as "red = fire". Instead have it split into something like blight/temporal/arcane, or even lifedrain/temporal/manaburn. If you're getting non-radiant damage types out of splitting radiance, you ought to be getting some weird effects, and not all of them pretty.

[malboro_urchin]

You don't think "damage fields, DOTs, and debuffs" are enough of a defining mechanic? Sure they aren't unique, but not every class needs to have a unique mechanic. I'd actually suggest considering making all damage radiant - or if you need multiple damage types (which I can understand) at least don't go as simple as "red = fire". Instead have it split into something like blight/temporal/arcane, or even lifedrain/temporal/manaburn. If you're getting non-radiant damage types out of splitting radiance, you ought to be getting some weird effects, and not all of them pretty.

I think damage fields, DoTs, and debuffs when combined with the Chromaticist's color theme do confer uniqueness to the character. Look at the Solipsist's Dream Smith line; at its core, it's a melee attack, a boomerang (okay, that one's sort of hard to replicate), a stronger melee attack with added stun, and an aoe cone. None of these are unique on their own, but become unique when you consider that they're all hammers materializing out of the Dream Forge through the Solipsist's force of will.

I also find your last sentence very intriguing, the notion of splitting light to get some of the weird-in-an-awesome-way damage types that we have now, like dreamforge, shadowflame, or void damage dovetails with the class's overall irreverent nature.

[The Revanchist]

I'd actually suggest considering making all damage radiant - or if you need multiple damage types (which I can understand) at least don't go as simple as "red = fire". Instead have it split into something like blight/temporal/arcane, or even lifedrain/temporal/manaburn. If you're getting non-radiant damage types out of splitting radiance, you ought to be getting some weird effects, and not all of them pretty.

I also find your last sentence very intriguing, the notion of splitting light to get some of the weird-in-an-awesome-way damage types that we have now, like dreamforge, shadowflame, or void damage dovetails with the class's overall irreverent nature.

This has my support as well. I'll be outlining these effects in the relevant trees when they're ready.

I'd also be fine with no "direct" damage, as in making it all radiant or zoned. As long as it can be potent enough to actually work. No doubt through a couple test characters.

[malboro_urchin]

I'd actually suggest considering making all damage radiant - or if you need multiple damage types (which I can understand) at least don't go as simple as "red = fire". Instead have it split into something like blight/temporal/arcane, or even lifedrain/temporal/manaburn. If you're getting non-radiant damage types out of splitting radiance, you ought to be getting some weird effects, and not all of them pretty.

I also find your last sentence very intriguing, the notion of splitting light to get some of the weird-in-an-awesome-way damage types that we have now, like dreamforge, shadowflame, or void damage dovetails with the class's overall irreverent nature.

This has my support as well. I'll be outlining these effects in the relevant trees when they're ready.

I'd also be fine with no "direct" damage, as in making it all radiant or zoned. As long as it can be potent enough to actually work. No doubt through a couple test characters.

No direct damage will make for a very difficult early game, mind you, unless the DoTs are just that strong. The reason direct damage is good in general is because you can kill things before they get their chance to lay whatever debilitating effects they can (including death) on you. You're going to have to couple your desire for all zone-based damage with equal parts mobility and defense (both of the regen and spike variety), and perhaps include some methods of silence/brainlock as teleportation could prove very annoying for this class.

I will reiterate that I wouldn't mind a nuke or two, but I think it's most mechanically fitting and thematic for any type of direct damage to originate from, and either consume a saturation zone or innoculate the affected enemy from that saturation zone's effects.

[The Revanchist]

I agree that Conveyance wouldn't make that much sense for this class. What with it being a light-manipulator and all. As for things like Silence, Brainlocking and other debilitations, we'll have to see what works. If I do recall, though, somebody mentioned illusions, and bending light could make a very nice stealth substitute. Might be OP, though, so drawbacks will be... present.

It would make an early game difficult, yes. Especially when the enemies get to keep their nukes. But if you could apply a DoT zone from the aforementioned stealth, the enemies never get the chance to nuke you. At least, until they get thoroughly hindered by the zone, and within clobbering distance.

There are a lot of pretty bizarre mechanics for this class, it seems. Early game might be a hassle, especially if we want the mid-to-late games to not be a stroll through the park. Which means a lot of testing.

[The Revanchist]

I'll be detailing the Saturation bars here. Not in trees, but generally.

I'll apologize here if anything seems iffy. I'm not particularly well-versed in Damage mechanics yet.

Cyan

Base Damage: 50% Cold, 50% Light

Investing in Cyan will shift damage to 20% Cold, 55% Prismatic Cold, and 25% Sap.

Prismatic Cold is cold damage that can freeze or slow, and deals cold damage over time.
Sap is cold damage that depletes "physical" resources.

Magenta

Base Damage: 50% Fire, 50% Light

Investing in Magenta will shift damage to 20% Fire, 55% Prismatic Flame, 25% Manaburn.

Prismatic Flame is fire damage that burns or blinds, and deals fire damage over time.
Manaburn is arcane damage that depletes "magic" resources.

Yellow

Base Damage: 50% Lightning, 50% Light

Investing in Yellow will shift damage to 20% Lightning, 55% Prismatic Lightning, 25% Disruptive Shock

Prismatic Lightning is lightning damage that can stun or confuse, and deals Lightning damage over time.
Disruptive Shock is mind damage that depletes "Mental" resources.


These are only preliminary, and not really set in stone. Feel free to suggest changes.