Lichform... get rid of racial tree in favor of new tree...

[Delmuir]

I have quite a few problems with Lichform... I love that it adds the celestial tree (or whatever) but you don't really have enough skill-points to make use of it as a caster (given the addition of the ice tree).

However, I'd like to humbly suggest that once you become a lich, you lose access to your entire racial tree but get a bonus of five skill points.

Now I know that the new beta has the animus tree but I don't know if it's generic or not... you could always add the points to generic.

Or whatever...

It just strikes me as odd that once you become a lich, there isn't a lich racial tree and you still get to keep your old racial tree.

Balance problem? It's a dumb idea? Thoughts?

[stinkstink]

It'd make Necromancer a one-race class (that race being Cornac.)

[Delmuir]

Ahhhhh... good point.

Perhaps for a cornac, it should gobble up a category point to equalize.

[Sirrocco]

In that case, all that would be left of your race would be life rating, stats, and exp mod. (technically, halflings would keep luck, and yeeks would keep confusion resist). I gotta say, I don't like it. It makes necromancer builds less interesting. What's the point of making things less interesting?

[The Revanchist]

Nothing at all. I can't think of a way that "less interesting=more fun".

It is strange, though, I agree. But how to change it...

Perhaps the newly-turned Lich would have a prodigy reserved for it? Do we want to give those out? Would it be unbalancing?

[random417]

I don't know if we need to get rid of the old racial tree, although locking it would be an option, but I do think the bonus category should be on the generic side. I never bother with lichform, cuz I can never spare the points for it, but I always seem to have way more generics than I need on a necro.

[HousePet]

Maybe higher levels of Lichform could give a few free points in Moonlight Ray?

Getting rid of the racial category sounds messy.

[The Revanchist]

I like the idea of locking the original racial bonus, though, while also adding a new "Lich" generic tree. If you really wanted the old one back, soend a point. If not, you have a shiny new one to play with.

Possible talents... Maybe the first raises your darkness and cold resistance? Perhaps physical as well, and maybe mind? Or is that too much?
The second could give you inherent mana and negative regeneration, I suppose. Power those expensive abilities a bit faster.
The third and fourth, though, I'm unsure about. How much would we want it to benefit a Necromancer, and how much a "Lich", whatever we decide it means?

[cttw]

How about this for Lichform:

- Give the Animus tree as a Generic Tree upon reaching Lichform - I think making it generic will allow more interesting builds, and...
- Disallow further point investment in the racial skills of your old race, but you keep the existing skills. This would create an interesting tension between going lich ASAP for the HP/level bonus or waiting until you snag that tier 4 racial you really want to put 5 points into.
- Give Lichform a little graphic, maybe a little blueish/black smoke traily thing.

[Sirrocco]

I'm a lot happier about "no further advancement, but keep the skills you have" than "the skills go away".

I don't think the lich needs another tree, though. If necros are hurting for an interesting place to spend generics, let's just give them another generic tree. Liches get enough as it is - especially given that it's an option not available to ghouls or skeletons.

In terms of lack of class points - well, builds aren't supposed to take all trees. Having enough class trees that you basically have to ignore a few does some very nice thigns for the variation in possible necromancers. I played a happy little lich that went pretty heavily into their celestial tree and ignored the ice tree.

[Delmuir]

I think everyone is generally right about not getting rid of the racial tree but instead locking it... I think that's a good idea.

I also like the idea of adding a lich-only racial tree (but I don't think it should be animus) available after lichform. It would make sense and would make the Necromancer a much more interesting character as, depending on your build, you could save up generics thus making the early and mid stages harder.

Now we just need to figure out what the Lich racials would be...

[Doctornull]

Maybe some races should keep their racials, and others lose them.

Also, maybe some races shouldn't be able to become Liches at all: like Shalore, since they're already immortal, they don't need no Necromancy crap; or Thalore because they're too connected to Nature or something.

Of the remaining races, we have:
- Cornac: too awesome to need any racial talents.
- Higher: racials are based on arcane magic, Liches should be able to use them.
- Halfling: racials seem to be based on training, Liches should be able to use them.
- Yeek: racials are mental, and a Lich has no trouble with Psionic stuff, so probably keep most of them, but the Wayists talent might become unavailable as the Yeek proves himself too selfish (and too dead) to participate in the Way.
- Dwarf: racials seem physical, dunno if a Lich should be able to use them.

[Parcae2]

I prefer the "no further investment" idea - treating specific talents differently strikes me as being too finicky.

I also don't think Lichform needs a nerf overall. Necros might come to need a nerf (I think they were already underestimated, and the new Animus tree is very powerful), but Lichform is the capstone of the class and its most thematic feature. It is completely inconceivable, fluff-wise, that any wannabe necro would do anything other than beeline Lichform immediately - that's their whole reason for becoming necromancers in the first place. As it stands, I honestly don't think that Lichform is necessarily even the right choice for a necro - Wild and Heroism infusions are just too powerful. If you want to nerf the class, nerf it in other ways. Lichform is, if anything, in need of a buff.

As for the "what about skellies and ghouls?" problem, that can easily be fiddled by giving the class advantages that trigger when undead, rather than when the necro is a lich. For example, Animus could be locked unless the necro is undead.

Edit: Forgot to mention that liches also give up the Blood of Life. That's a hell of a lot of a tradeoff for an upgrade that should be a no-brainer.

[jotwebe]

That's a hell of a lot of a tradeoff for an upgrade that should be a no-brainer.

But should it be a no-brainer? I for one don't think so. Fluff-wise all the living necromancer want to become lichs, because, fluff-wise, they want to live forever. Player characters on the other hand are insanely reckless and might very well figure they'll likely be dead in a dungeon somewhere long before it becomes an issue.

Anyway, I think it's pretty much okay at the moment, and do agree that it doesn't need a nerf.

[Parcae2]

The text on lichform talent claims that it is "your true purpose, and the goal of all necromancy."