A less pointless dreamscape

[The Revanchist]

I like that idea: A Dreamscape talent that grows in uses as you level it.

I'll be honest though, when I heard Dreamwars, I expected something more along the lines of:
Your mental faculties are without equal, your will that of an army. You can now focus your daunting mind on your foes, crushing their puny dreams beneath your heel.

Essentially, a Dreamscape that affects every enemy you can "see" at once. Depending on how we do this, perhaps using an abstracted (ai-vs-ai?) battlefield for each.

Writing this, a thought dawned on me. What happens when you Dreamscape/Dreamwar a target with Paranoia or another fear active? Currently, nothig, but imagine letting a Paranoid ally subject his mind to all his allies in their own Dreamstate...

[lyx]

okay, so how about this (again, actual values need playtesting):


General unusual rules in dreamscape:
---------------------------------------------------------------
No ressourcecosts for actions.

Before entering dreamscape, a copy of all your cooldowns, buffs and debuffs is made. When entering dreamscape, all cooldowns get removed as well as all debuffs (on the dreamscape version, not the copy we made before). When exiting dreamscape, the copies are made the current state again, restoring everything to what it was before. Then, the consequences of the dreamscape game get applied to the current version.

So, talents you activate in dreamscape, will not result in them having a cooldown when you leave dreamscape again. Debuffs "before dreamscape" will not affect dreamscape, and debuffs received in dreamscape will not affect "after dreamscape".

This applies to you, as well as a possible opponent.

This method, combined with actions costing no ressources in dreamscape, entirely circumvents the current "worse off after using dreamscape, even though i won easily"-problems.

Every char in dreamscape gets -25% mind resistance, to make mind attacks more powerful.


Roles in the dreamscape:

You
---------------------------------------------------------------
NOT invincible, but all damage you receive is halved. On the other hand, any kind of healing also is halved.

Normal damage on attacks. Minor bonus from lucid dreaming (if active) and dreamscape talents.


Your projections (always two. If one dies, another one spawns)
---------------------------------------------------------------
They have 25% your normal max HP. For each one killed, you lose 15% your hp instantly. Additionally, for each one killed, 3 random talents go on cooldown in dreamscape AND in the copy that will be restored when exiting dreamscape. Additionally, when exiting dreamscape, for every projection of you that was killed, you get brainlocked for +2 turns.

They deal 50% base damage. If you have lucid dreamer active, then they gain 5*lucid_dreamer_level +5 percent extra damage (on top of the 50%).


Fears
---------------------------------------------------------------
If the dreamscape happens in your dreams, then they will be enemies. If the dreamscape happens in the opponents dreams, they will be on your side.

They have 20% the dreamer's max HP and 60% the dreamer's damage. There's always two of them, plus one per every dreamer's debuff (debuffs like nightmare and inner demons, count twice).

If one of them dies, it respawns 1 turns later. For each one killed, the dreamer instantly regains 5% HP. Upon dreamscape exit, for each kill the dreamer gains 7% ressources (except HP), one random debuff is removed, and two random talents are taken off cooldown.


Opponent
---------------------------------------------------------------
Same as with "You", just for... well, the opponent.


Opponent's projections
---------------------------------------------------------------
Same as with "Your projections", just for... well, the opponent.



Okay, now how does all this fit together in practice?
---------------------------------------------------------------
You can enter your dreams:
There'll be you, your projections and your fears.

Opponent can do the same:
But you wont see it, because it's autocalced.

You can enter your opponents dream, if he is sleeping:
There'll be all 5 roles: you, your projections, your opponent's fears, your opponent's projections, your opponent

The opponent can enter your dreams, if you're sleeping:
Same as above, but there'll be your fears (on opponent side)

Yes, dreamscape needs a slightly bigger map.

Notice that entering someone else's dream no longer has the same mechanics. If you want to hurt your opponent, it will probably work faster if you attack him directly, while protecting your projections. If instead you want to do hit'n run, you would want to kill 2 of his projections, then exit dreamscape to deal with the now stunned and cooldowned opponent.

[Doctornull]

I really like the general idea, but the specifics above seem unnecessarily complex.

I'd prefer to keep the aspect of the Dreamscape which isolates one target (you and your enemy). Throwing in the personifications of your buffs & debuffs still isolates you, since the battle ends when one of you "dies". Dreamscapes must always be risky, and you must only be able to use them against an actual opponent... no solo dreaming, if you don't have an opponent you can just rest away your conditions.


To make the risk/reward more interesting, something like...

If you win the fight, you leave the dream feeling refreshed, and gain the Refreshed timed effect:
+ Psi regen based on talent level
+ Life regen
+ Every turn one talent in cooldown has its cooldown reduced by 1
+ (duration boost from Lucid Dreamer, maybe)
+ Your buffs are unchanged

If you lose the fight, you suffer the Restless Night mental timed effect:
- Talent cooldown increased by some %
- Negative Mind, Nature and Physical resist
- Slow
- (effects from Sandman go here)
- Your debuffs are unchanged

If you neither win nor lose (because the Dreamscape expired while both of you were alive), then you both get to "keep" the effect of slaying your debuffs, but neither of you gets a special timed effect.


--- Inside the Dreamscape ---

Use the "Split the Timeline" code so you can restore yourself & your opponent after the fight. This conflicts with some Chronomancy stuff, but if you're using both at the same time you're an expert Adventurer, or it means you're cleverly using Chronomancy to kill a Dreaming Horror and that's a tolerable niche effect IMHO.

Within the Dreamscape, instantly remove all Physical effects (positive and negative) from you and your opponent. You are in a mental space. Set 100% physical effect resistance (so stuff like self:canBe("stun") is always false for you & opponent).

Maybe all "physical" attacks use Mindpower instead of Physpower? Dunno if that's overpowered or not.

Personify some subset of Mental and maybe some Magical effects, especially stuff like magical blight diseases. Some effects like Silence are largely irrelevant to a Psionic character, so I'm not sure it's worth personifying them. But effects like Fears, hell yes. Fears totally get personified. On the other hand, if my Archmage got sucked into a Dreamscape, he'd totally want to see Silence get personified so he could murderize it. Hmm.

When you get hit with a new effect, is it instantly removed and personified? I think it would have to be. But if such a personified effect already exists, then the "new" effect would just get thrown away. That's one way the player can be smarter than the AI.


--- Starting Small ---

IMHO it would be a good enough start to just split the timeline, remove physical effects, and then figure out who won the fight for the rider effects. Everything else can build off of that foundation.

[grooog]

I'd prefer to keep the aspect of the Dreamscape which isolates one target

To me, fearscape does that fine and it'd be awesome to have dreamscape do something different. If they both do the same thing, one or the other is going to be better at it. If they do different things, each class provides a more unique experience.

[Sradac]

I like some of those ideas Null, having physical basically "not work" makes so much sense its a big "duh" moment for probably everyone.

It would make dreamscape a VERY plausible solution against melee heavy, weak minded enemies. Just like when you have a dream in real life that you're in a fight, but all your punchs are super slow and / or super weak. You lack the psionic prowess to "will" your blows into existence.

It would also make it dangerous, but not unheard of, to use it against Mentally fit appoinents. Mages might be slightly less dangerous, but still a threat. Mindslayers and wilders can be a problem. and Lol@you for using it on another Solipsist.

I still think you should be able to enter the Dreamscape solo though, because why not? I can't enter the Dream World unless im entering someone ELSES dreams? Why cant I just take control of my own?

[Parcae2]

The problem with making it an ability that you use in the absence of opponents is that it winds up being a slow and clunky version of existing skills - basically a needlessly complex way of doing what Invigorate and wild infusions do in a much simpler way.

I think that when you use Dreamscape, foes from the outside world should constantly be trickling in every X turns. Whatever damage you do to them carries over when the ability ends. Each time a foe enters, you get the option to check your mind save against their mindpower to reject them and substitute a different opponent (so that you don't trigger Fearscape, only to immediately have to fight the level boss).

[Doctornull]

I'd prefer to keep the aspect of the Dreamscape which isolates one target

To me, fearscape does that fine and it'd be awesome to have dreamscape do something different. If they both do the same thing, one or the other is going to be better at it. If they do different things, each class provides a more unique experience.

They can do similar things but with different implications. Like, in Fearscape you take damage every turn, but in Dreamscape you can't suffer or benefit from Physical timed effects.

Maybe your mental link means nature summons DO follow you into the Dreamscape (and your Thoughtforms), but a Golem won't.

I still think you should be able to enter the Dreamscape solo though, because why not? I can't enter the Dream World unless im entering someone ELSES dreams? Why cant I just take control of my own?

Well here's the thing. You have exactly two possible outcomes:
a) It is USEFUL to enter your own solo dream (i.e. it is better than just resting); or
b) It is NOT useful to enter your own solo dream (i.e. it is worse than just resting).

In case (a), you've taken an automated mechanic and made it more optimal to operate manually. That's making the game more of a grind.

In case (b), the mechanic will be ignored.

---

But in terms of fluff, let's see... breaking your own conditions via "dream combat" requires some mental energy. If you did it using your OWN mental energy, you'd break even, so instead you (ab)use the mental energy of your defeated opponent. Asking why you can't profit from solo dream combat is like asking why you can't just drink your own saliva to slake your thirst.

[Sradac]

Its useful in that you have a chance to remove debuffs mid fight from yourself. Theres also a chance you get yourself killed though

[HousePet]

Yet a Wild infusion would do the same with no risk, and instantly.

[lyx]

a) It is USEFUL to enter your own solo dream (i.e. it is better than just resting); or
b) It is NOT useful to enter your own solo dream (i.e. it is worse than just resting).

In case (a), you've taken an automated mechanic and made it more optimal to operate manually. That's making the game more of a grind.

In case (b), the mechanic will be ignored.

You're ignoring that i proposed dreamscape to have a very high cooldown (>50 turns. Possibly even 100 turns). As such it will not be feasible to use it multiple times in a fight. Another aspect is that in my proposed version, you will end up better off, if you do it well, but there is also the danger that you might be worse off if you mess up.

This being said, there is the danger, that a player might resort to doing dreamscape in every halfway difficult battle, if the player is good at it. BUT, the same is true for fearscape, or your proposed version of dreamscape: If a player is good at it, he will resort to it often - for this being true, it is completely irrelevant if is solo-dreaming or isolation: it only depends on RISK - and "being good at it" implies that a player has mitigated that risk.

However, there are a few things in my proposal, that could be improved. Two i noticed so far:

--------------

Update to my proposal from post http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 42#p165267 :

Previously it stated about FEARS:

If one of them dies, it respawns 1 turns later. For each one killed, the dreamer instantly regains 5% HP. Upon dreamscape exit, for each kill the dreamer gains 7% ressources (except HP), one random debuff is removed, and two random talents are taken off cooldown.

I'd remove the 5% hp and instead just make it so, that a player gets 5% HP for ANY enemy killed.

I'd also remove the 7% ressource gain rule for killing a fear, and make it more simple: If you killed at least 3 fears in the dreamscape, all positive ressources (i.e. PSI) will be at 30% if there were below 30% (you can't gain above 30% via dreamscape). Negative ressources (equilibrium, paradox, etc) get reduced to 30% if they were above 30% (you can't lower them below 30% via dreamscape). This way, dreamscape can never be a way to max out ressources - only to slightly recover if you're completely spent.

Lastly, the scenarios could be simplified a bit more, and some imbalances removed. Previously it said:

Okay, now how does all this fit together in practice?
---------------------------------------------------------------
You can enter your dreams:
There'll be you, your projections and your fears.

Opponent can do the same:
But you wont see it, because it's autocalced.

You can enter your opponents dream, if he is sleeping:
There'll be all 5 roles: you, your projections, your opponent's fears, your opponent's projections, your opponent

The opponent can enter your dreams, if you're sleeping:
Same as above, but there'll be your fears (on opponent side)

First, there is a balance issue. Attacking an opponent with the above setup is actually EASIER than solo-dreaming (you didn't notice that, Doc?). That's because in solo-dream, you only have your projections on your side, but on attacks, you have your projections AND the fears on your side. Oh, sure, there now is an opponent and opposing projections, but the balance is still tipped in your favour. Furthermore, it means quite a lot of different types of chars on the map - it may easily be too chaotic and confusing.

So, i propose to instead make it so, that just as with current dreamscape, if you attack someone, you have no own projections on your side. The setup thus would look like this:

Okay, now how would all this fit together?
-----------------------------

In dreamscape, there are:
- The dreamer
- Dreamer's projections (on dreamer side)
- Fears (enemy, usually outnumbers the dreamer's projections)
- (optional) attacking dreamer (enemy)

This still makes attacks potentially easier, especially if the defending dreamer is loaded with debuffs, but it's less extreme as before. Plus, one could argue that maybe this is the whole point of dream classes: Fill the opponent's mind with enemies via nightmare debuffs, then defeat him in his dreams.

As such, by now i no longer see problems with my proposal in terms of solo-dreaming. That now in terms of risk/reward IMO is perfectly fine. It carries a risk of being worse off afterwards, can only remove debuffs, and cannot improve ressources above 30%. Infusions can do those things better and with no risk, as does resting at a safe place, so solo-dreaming really only has a point when you're out of other options in the middle of a fight - which is what IMO it should be for. And with i.e. a 100 turns cooldown, you can't spam it.

Where instead further improvements and polishing might be needed, is when attacking someone else.

Perhaps one way to finally finish off the balance for attacks, is to only give the dreamer the "only takes half damage, but also only gets half healing" benefit. An attacking dreamer instead would take damage and heal as usual. Thus, maximizing fears via debuffs would be needed. Or, just simply forget the whole "halved heal" thing, give the dreamer 25% damage reduction, and be done with it.

[lyx]

Updated proposal of my variant (to have everything in one place again - easier to read):

_________________________

General unusual rules in dreamscape:
- Actions cost no ressources

- Mind attacks deal 15% more damage

- Physical attacks deal 15% less damage

- Dreamscape has a high cooldown (above 50 turns, might even be 100 turns)

- Before entering dreamscape, the timeline is split. Upon entering dreamscape, all cooldowns and debuffs are removed. When exiting dreamscape, the previous timeline is restored, and the consequences of the dreamscape minigame get applied to it. So, talents you activate in dreamscape, will not result in them having a cooldown after leaving dreamscape. Debuffs "before dreamscape" will not affect dreamscape, and debuffs received in dreamscape will not affect "after dreamscape".


Chars in the dreamscape:
----------------------------------------------------------------

The dreamer
- NOT invincible, but received damage is reduced by 15%
- Damage dealt is increased by 6% * lucid_dreamer_level (if LD active)
- Gains 5% HP for each enemy killed
- speed is increased by dreamscape_level *5 percent

Dreamer's projections
- Always two. If one is killed, a new one spawns.
- 25% of dreamer max-hp
- Deal 50% of dreamer damage
- if one is killed, dreamer instantly loses 15% HP.

Dreamer's fears
- Enemy of dreamer and his projections
- Initially there are 2, plus 1 for each debuff active when entering dreamscape
- If number of fears goes below 2, a new one is spawned
- 25% of dreamer max-hp
- Deal 60% of dreamer's damage, plus 10% for each nightmare-category debuff active

(Optional) Attacking Dreamer
- Only appears if an opposing dreamer attacked the dreamer while the dreamer was sleeping
- Damage dealt is increased by 6% * lucid_dreamer_level (if LD active)
- speed is increased by dreamscape_level *5 percent


Effects after dreamscape (applied when old timeline is restored)
----------------------------------------------------------------
- For each dreamer projection killed, dreamer gets 2 random talents put on cooldown
- For each dreamer projection killed, dreamer gets a random +3 turn stun effect
- For each fear killed, dreamer gets 2 random talents put off cooldown
- For each fear killed, 2 random dreamer debuffs get -3 turns on their clock
- If at least 3 fears were killed, then for each dreamer ressource (except HP) that is "worse" than 30%, it is set to 30%.
- (If applicable) The attacking dreamer always gets brainlocked for 1 turn

__________

EDIT: Made dreamscape talent level improve speed, instead of damage-reduc.... seems to make more sense.

[Sirrocco]

Hmm. Basic problem is that you're burning resources and cooldowns, right? ...so why not make it free as far as resources and cooldowns go? You bun a bit of psi to get in, but then your projection is already in their mind, and it won't take any more resources from your end. Play through in there. Damage dealt to your enemy in the dream world translates to debuffs in the real world (including an ever-increasing degree of brainlock, alongside varying amounts of cunfusion, stun, and so forth). At the end of the dream combat, you reset to your original body - possibly with some debuff or other cost if your dream projection was completely destroyed.

Oooh - better. When you come out of it, your enemy has an incurable debuff - Dream-war, with a duration equal to the number of shards you destroyed. Each turn of that debuff, the enemy takes some mind damage and picks up another debuff of some sort (kind of randomly). Also, the base debuff does something like give a mindpower/spellpower/physpower debuff, to cover the distraction of fighting on two fronts simultaneously. The idea here is that you're throwing a psi-copy of yourself into their brain to do Bad Thigns to them, and then fighting them normally at the same time. That would make this an opener that you'd toss on a particularly challenging foe right at the start of battle.

[Doctornull]

a) It is USEFUL to enter your own solo dream (i.e. it is better than just resting); or
b) It is NOT useful to enter your own solo dream (i.e. it is worse than just resting).

In case (a), you've taken an automated mechanic and made it more optimal to operate manually. That's making the game more of a grind.

In case (b), the mechanic will be ignored.

You're ignoring that i proposed dreamscape to have a very high cooldown (>50 turns. Possibly even 100 turns). As such it will not be feasible to use it multiple times in a fight. Another aspect is that in my proposed version, you will end up better off, if you do it well, but there is also the danger that you might be worse off if you mess up.

This being said, there is the danger, that a player might resort to doing dreamscape in every halfway difficult battle, if the player is good at it. BUT, the same is true for fearscape, or your proposed version of dreamscape: If a player is good at it, he will resort to it often - for this being true, it is completely irrelevant if is solo-dreaming or isolation: it only depends on RISK - and "being good at it" implies that a player has mitigated that risk.

I'm not ignoring that. There are plenty of racial abilities with cooldowns in that range, and they work great in combat.

If you allow solo-dreaming, you're competing with Wild infusions (per HousePet above) and plain vanilla rest. When it's safe enough to rest, your mechanic will be either better or worse than the existing options, and it will ALWAYS be better or worse because there's no tactical nuance available: when it's safe to rest, cooldowns don't matter at all.

Maybe you're saying the niche for your Dreamscape are Undead characters, who can't use Infusions? That's a valid niche, but it's kind of ... small. Especially if it's only available to one class.

---

The other reason to restrict it to combat is NPCs. Right now, an NPC can suck you into its Dreamscape just like the Fearscape ones do, and that's a good thing. You can see what Dreamscape means before you have to pay for it with a Solipsist character.

If Dreamscape is solo optimal, and has a hella long cooldown, how often will an NPC use the talent to actually do something entertaining from the player's perspective?

---

EDIT: Basically what I'm saying here is that there's a really awesome, fun idea here (kill your target's buffs / your own de-buffs) but allowing that idea to work solo seems like it could have some really dull, grindy consequences.

I'm strongly in favor of only allowing awesome, fun, and dangerous options.

[parcel]

Another idea to throw into the mix is to have the Dreamscape be an extension of the sort of experiences you get in the caldera, and a world in which solipsism is inherently stronger. Dreams are real, and reality is a dream; this is the sort of equivocal mindstate that extends the abilities of psychics into a realm qualitatively similar to arcane magic. In this vein, dreamscape could be a legitimate combat with the selected enemie(s), but with everyone taking damage to psi. In the dreamscape, solipsism is perfected, so solipsists take 100% damage and healing as psi. Everyone else gets some degree of psi conversion, probably 100%. You can't really die, therefore, and neither can your opponent, but when the effect ends everyone can take some nasty punishments in converting their psi damage back into other stuff. Solipsism, on the other hand, protects you from the conversion effects, since you never left nor entered the dream; you were merely present in one part of the dreamscape which you take to be all of reality.

The dreamscape itself can be themed to reward solispist combat style in various ways. Mind damage can be amplified, with mind resistance penetration on all attacks. Turns in which an enemy is asleep and unable to act can extend the duration of the dreamscape effect, and so on.

[The Revanchist]

Awesome, fun and dangerous, plus best for the class that it's designed for sounds like a good strategy.

It would make quite a bit of sense for the Solipsist (who believes reality is a construct of the mind) to not be adversely affected by the change back from a dream to reality. For them, there really isn't much of a difference.

That being said, if the class in question was a Berserker (who believes that hitting something hard enough kills it, and doesn't know much else, typically) and had to adjust to using their (lack of) mental fortitude instead of their physical... it wouldn't be easy.

Another sub-suggestion you can pick apart: Talents earned through the Solipsism tree that give amazing bonuses... But only in the Dreamscape, where their minds can exercise their full potential.