Spell / Phantasm re-work

[Doctornull]

There are some balance issues with Illuminate being usable from Stealth. Basically, you can auto-crit + Shadowstrike the whole map, and inflict enough damage to one-shot even relatively tough mooks.


I'm finding this out by testing my Striker addon class, but this tactic is abusable by Shadow Blades in the main game from level 10+ for non-Cornacs (or level 4+ for Cornacs), and Shadow Blades have access Lethality to make the auto-crit even nastier.


Here's my idea for a solution:

• Blur Sight grants two sustains:
  • Cloak of Shadow does what Blur Sight does now (defense). While sustained, Illuminate can blind.
  • Cloak of Light makes increases Lite radius +1 to +5. While sustained, Stealth is impossible, and Illuminate deals Light damage.
• Phantasmal Shield becomes a passive buff for Cloak of Shadow and Cloak of Light:
  • Cloak of Shadow gains progressive stealth bonus, and resist Light & Fire damage.
  • Cloak of Light gains progressive on-hit Light damage, and resist Darkness & Blindness.
• Illuminate no longer inflicts light damage or blindness unless you have one of the cloaks sustained.
• Invisibility stays the same.

Anybody see any problems with this? If not, I'll try to code it in Nullpack.

[Tomemancer]

I'm relatively certain that Lethality only applies to weapons, by the way (as opposed to spells).

Why not just have Illuminate break stealth? The way you have it is a bigger nerf to Mag/Cun stealthy Shadowblades. Honestly your idea would make me even less likely to pick up the Phantasm tree on Archmage, too.

[HousePet]

I think the issue here is that Illuminate does a bit too much damage, not that Shadowstrike does what it is supposed to do.

Definately not keen on making Illuminate do almost nothing without Blur Sight.

[minmay]

I'm relatively certain that Lethality only applies to weapons, by the way (as opposed to spells).

The critical chance bonus is only for physical criticals, but the critical multiplier bonus (like every other critical multiplier bonus in the game) applies to all criticals.

Why not just have Illuminate break stealth?

It already does.

[Doctornull]

Why not just have Illuminate break stealth? The way you have it is a bigger nerf to Mag/Cun stealthy Shadowblades.

I guess we could have Illuminate break Stealth BEFORE rolling to crit. That would be a small change.

Honestly your idea would make me even less likely to pick up the Phantasm tree on Archmage, too.

You'd turn down a +5 Lite radius on the best glass cannon in the game?
My Archmagi really love a big Lite radius.

Definately not keen on making Illuminate do almost nothing without Blur Sight.

Right now Illuminate can be vastly frustrating when you have an escort. This would give the player the ability to light up the room without killing his guests.


@ Minmay - with Unseen Actions, I can repeatedly use Illuminate from stealth, and I think that's as intended... but even if Illuminate always broke Stealth after critting, I'd still be vaporizing a room full of mooks and then resting safely. The screen-wide mega-crit is the problem.

[HousePet]

Definately not keen on making Illuminate do almost nothing without Blur Sight.

Right now Illuminate can be vastly frustrating when you have an escort. This would give the player the ability to light up the room without killing his guests.

But you can use a staff, wand or sun infusion for that. As mentioned the best bit about Illuminate is the mass nuke.

[SageAcrin]

Heavy magic Shadowblades literally have the one spell that's "abusable". Running heavy magic Shadowblades is painful, and having an actual advantage is nice.

This sounds more like a symptom of having a more magic oriented stealth build have Illuminate.

[Doctornull]

Heavy magic Shadowblades literally have the one spell that's "abusable".

Yeah, Ambruscade.

This sounds more like a symptom of having a more magic oriented stealth build have Illuminate.

You're wrong.

I'm able to walk through Farportal realms hitting Stealth, autoexplore, Illuminate, rest, repeat.

That's crappy game play.

It's an option which sucks the fun out of a Shadowblade's game.

edit: clearer wording

[SageAcrin]

Ambuscade doesn't require permanent spellpower investment, just enough Magic to get it rolling.

Illuminate has a 14 CD, and does a small fraction of what Shadowstep would do, for damage. Sure, Shadowstep checks twice, but Shadowstep would also do well over twice as much damage.

And Illuminate still can break stealth.

Biggest thing I see is that it's a really cool/solid area clear, honestly, with Stealth. That's good and all, but it still takes quite a lot of investment.

[Doctornull]

Ambuscade doesn't require permanent spellpower investment, just enough Magic to get it rolling.

You miss the point: Ambruscade is currently broken, using Ambruscade optimally removes lots of danger, and therefore Ambruscade needs to be fixed.

The same chain of logic applies to the current Illuminate.

Illuminate has a 14 CD, and does a small fraction of what Shadowstep would do, for damage. Sure, Shadowstep checks twice, but Shadowstep would also do well over twice as much damage.

Here's the difference: when Shadowstep breaks stealth, you're in some monster's face, possibly near some of his big ugly friends.

When Illuminate breaks stealth, you step back around the corner and run away or restealth. You're safely away from danger.

Shadowstep puts you in danger, while Illuminate evaporates the whole visible map before allowing you to safely walk back behind cover.

Risk for payoff = good.
Payoff without risk = boring and bad.

Biggest thing I see is that it's a really cool/solid area clear, honestly, with Stealth. That's good and all, but it still takes quite a lot of investment.

Using tools optimally ought to be fun, rather than boring.

Again, the issue is that this tool removes too much danger, quite similar to the current Ambruscade.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

It's still not going to always kill everything. And for a shadowblade, it's the wrong element for them to stack damage in too. And given the light up the terrain effect, it completely ruins the possibility to use Armor of Shadows prodigy.

I'm really not clear why this is an issue. Other classes get gigantic magic nukes already. Blood spray anyone? Blood Boil, Bone nova? Thunderstorm, Fireflash? It's just a symptom of magic being strong from stealth, not an issue with illuminate.

[Doctornull]

It's still not going to always kill everything. And for a shadowblade, it's the wrong element for them to stack damage in too. And given the light up the terrain effect, it completely ruins the possibility to use Armor of Shadows prodigy.

Those are all true.

However, my tests show that with just a Staff the damage will one-shot all Normal monsters, and take over 50% off an Elite. So following the incredibly boring strategy of rest, stealth, autoexplore, illuminate, repeat, the only danger you're left with are Rares and Bosses. (For those, the Shadowblade has Flurry. )

A greater Staff can stack both Light and Darkness, and a non-greater Staff costs you 1 turn to swap.

I'm not very familiar with the Armor of Shadow prodigy -- is it the preeminent Shadowblade choice?

I'm really not clear why this is an issue. Other classes get gigantic magic nukes already. Blood spray anyone? Blood Boil, Bone nova? Thunderstorm, Fireflash? It's just a symptom of magic being strong from stealth, not an issue with illuminate.

It's an issue of interaction. A fix would change either Stealth or Illuminate or both, and the smallest fix would be to change Illuminate.

[HousePet]

The smallest fix is the rebalance the damage on illuminate to reflect how cheap it is to get and use.

[Doctornull]

The smallest fix is the rebalance the damage on illuminate to reflect how cheap it is to get and use.

If possible, that would be great. What value would allow it to remain useful for NON-Stealth users, but not be broken for Stealth users?

I am currently unable to find such a value, so I propose splitting the effect into a "stealth-compatible" version and a "no stealth" version.

Putting lower damage on the "stealth-compatible" version could work for stealth-users, but it seems to me that the regular no-stealth version is already just about right for use by an Archmage.

[morganp]

Illuminate and Ambuscade are nearly the only things keeping Shadowblade from being a regular Rogue, in practice, the other being Shadowstep. Nimble movements + Flurry isn't exactly like shadowstep, but in practice...

I'm not saying don't nerf Illuminate; I am saying it is the only thing making the class playable for me right now (I'm not an Ambuscade user). If this gets nerfed, can we rebalance a bit to make these guys somewhat less pitiful? The stat point investment is pretty deep, unless you want to neglect magic, and have... a Rogue. Without poisons or traps. I think the classes with wide stat point spread should have some payoff that makes it worth it.