Runic Mastery tree (analogue to Fungus)

[SageAcrin]

The problem with that is, optional categories are a terrible way to fix problems like that.

You know that that's not what I'm trying to do.

E: Celestial/Light is not a fair comparison; It, if anything, is the Arcane equivalent of Fungus(this is why they don't need a second equivalent, in part.). And you can easily 3/1/3/1 the tree to get decent mileage. Having said that, yes, this category point-and the bunch of others Archmages get-is why I said it would only compete, rather than crush the competition. Still, it can easily be stacked, and provides undead Archmages, specifically, with a unique advantage(unsilenceable Runes; This is a huge deal, this is one of the ways you can be rendered fully powerless). It can be worth going down to four Runes for that, funny enough.

That's the plan: if you make a significant sacrifice, you gain a decent benefit. Not overpowering, but useful within its niche.

I did not, in fact, know that was not what you were trying to do. It sounded like you were making a justification of the role the category has.

Reading back on it, it still looks like that.

Propose something to replace it, or we can screw over the races for which it would be too much of a benefit by just saying "not you, Skeleton or Ghoul".

Is that more fun?

Actually, I'm increasingly sure that a category that has this heavy of fixation on Runes or Infusions is a poor idea, due to the fact that subsets of the game (Antimagic and undead) rely on one set or the other.

I didn't initially think this, to be honest...Aegis and Fungus certainly have fixations on Runes and Infusions respectively. But what I didn't think of is that Fungus is an Antimagic defining category, while Aegis...actually focuses more generally on barrier effects and less specifically on Runes.

If you're defining a major flaw of a playstyle via having a major buff to an entire category, it seems to work out, but it seems very hard to make a similar no-downside category-it seems very hard to have it deviate from "useless for everyone else, okay for the people that only use Runes" or "good for everyone, overpowered for the people that only use Runes".

An idea like this category may be better buffed, with some kind of Corruption theme and a Nature gear/Infusion ban, instead...but that's pretty far afield from the original concept. Not that it'd necessarily be a bad idea.

And the fact that your current answers appear to be "Let's arbitrarily, and without any thematic reason, ban the ones it'd be overpowered for." and "Come up with another idea, then!" for the problem...suggests that you may agree with that assessment on some level. Regardless, I don't have a better suggestion than what I just gave.

[b0rsuk]

I'm changing my mind - making arcane about inreased access and options is a good way to solve this. But to make it work, arcane options need to be more appealing.

Currently most of runes are of questionable utility to melee characters. Fronzen spear can be used in place of a mental infusion, but what's the point of using a ranged attack in melee ? And the pain suppression effect really helps, it can be over 30% for 6 turns with instant use. A single ranged attack very rarely makes the difference, because all enemies are big heaps of HP. There are no glass cannon enemies, not to the point where it would make players want to use a ranged attack. You won't take out the smallest gwelgoroth with a heat beam rune! Even if you find one in time ! Acid Wave and Lightning are the only two runes which are good for non-ranged, in my opinion.

So I see two things that could see improvement:
- a new class of enemies - glass cannons - could be added to promote ranged combat. Something that is dangerous up close, but easy to one-shot from distance.
- just plain make runes more appealing. There's little difference between Phase Door and Teleport, both are designed for getting away. Maybe a Battle Call rune ? Switch Position rune ? Darkness rune ?

[Mewtarthio]

If antimagic is overpowered, I think a simpler solution would be to just axe the psychoportation torques. Currently, the main advantage of runes over infusions is that runes provide a bunch of reliable escape options. The torques let antimagic users have their cake and eat it, too: Without them, anyone going antimagic would have to work out in advance how they'd deal with the lack of teleportation. It would make runes particularly appealing to melee classes, who generally can't learn such escape options on their own.

[quote="darkgodGods, if they come in on an other world, if anything will be closer to nature than arcane. Because they are inherently creatures of the planet, tied and bound to it.[/quote]

Interesting... So if horrors are the scions of Amakthel, why are there so few psi/nature-themed horrors? The only ones I can think of are the gra'vannor and oozing horrors.

[Kaja Rainbow]

Psychoportation torques're universally usable, with applications for even arcane characters (extra escape, or one that works even with silence). And eliminating them'd just skew it toward antimagic-compatible classes that do have reliable escape options. Plus, if antimagic was truly that good, it'd be the dominant winning strategy. Winner analysis hasn't shown this to be the case.

[b0rsuk]

Antimagic users have more to gain from Psychoportation. I typically use both Movement and Psychoportation, and that's on non-AM characters. I find Movement to be more versatile than Teleportation - it works in ambushes and small levels, can be used to run up to a monster and is more tactical - i have greater control over what's happening.I don't feel a need for Teleportation, because there are always Psychoports around.

Besides, there's no worthy competition for Psychoports. I don't play mana classes usually, so can't comment on channeling but it's rare in any case. Clear mind has to be used in advance - which makes sense, because you can't use stuff easily while confused, but mental attacks are often ranged which makes them hard to predict. Damage resistance torques are highly situational and again, hard to predict. I often equip a kinetic torque in sandworm lair because I stopped teleporting in there when I lost a character in a collapsing tunnel. I think (not sure) thermal torque works against shade of Telos and his Uttercold. Thermal torque is okay against Golbug, but to be honest his melee and confusion is more dangerous, and again I found Psychoportation to be more helpful there. Ultimately, 6 turn duration with 1 turn use speed often ends up being wasted - the monster has a high chance of not using the special in such a short time.

Psychoportation's main disadvantage - no minimum range - is a much smaller deal than it appears at first. Yes, you might lose an early character to this, but once you get a dwarvensteel one (my level42 bulwark still has to rely on a steel one, heh) the chance is tiny, and I follow it by Movement in any case. Today I ended up psychoporting from Vor entrance to Vor entrance. I used Movement, and everything was fine. Psychoportation also works in ambushes, so it has an advantage.
Finally, no minimum range is absolutely not an issue in vaults - a psychoport will always throw you outside. This may need to be changed - it makes sense to disallow teleporting from outside to inside, but inside->inside teleportation should work.

[Doctornull]

(...)

That's the plan: if you make a significant sacrifice, you gain a decent benefit. Not overpowering, but useful within its niche.

I did not, in fact, know that was not what you were trying to do. It sounded like you were making a justification of the role the category has.

Reading back on it, it still looks like that.

It looks to me like I'm trying to make something "not overpowering, but useful within its niche".

Surely that's not objectionable to you?

If you're defining a major flaw of a playstyle via having a major buff to an entire category, it seems to work out

Could you point out the bit where I'm "defining a major flaw of a playstyle"?

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here.

"Let's arbitrarily, and without any thematic reason, ban the ones it'd be overpowered for."

I did give a thematic explanation -- "if you have Runes and Infusions, then Runic Harmony allows your Runes to work like they were Infusions".

You don't have to love it, but it's right there.

That's the cool thing about being creative: I can usually come up with three mutually contradictory flavor justifications to back up any arbitrary mechanical decision.

This is why mechanical balance needs to be foremost, rather than "thematics": one of them is less arbitrary than the other.

[SageAcrin]

If you're defining a major flaw of a playstyle via having a major buff to an entire category, it seems to work out

Could you point out the bit where I'm "defining a major flaw of a playstyle"?

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here.

You aren't.

I was referring to how Antimagic generates disadvantages as well as advantages, which partially balances Fungus.

"Let's arbitrarily, and without any thematic reason, ban the ones it'd be overpowered for."

I did give a thematic explanation -- "if you have Runes and Infusions, then Runic Harmony allows your Runes to work like they were Infusions".

You don't have to love it, but it's right there.

That's the cool thing about being creative: I can usually come up with three mutually contradictory flavor justifications to back up any arbitrary mechanical decision.

This is why mechanical balance needs to be foremost, rather than "thematics": one of them is less arbitrary than the other.

Infusions are Nature constructs, Runes are Arcane constructs, and making Arcane and Natural forces synergize is specifically lost knowledge that Angolwen specifically does not have.

It is a major thematic thing that only a few obscure tribes(like Dwarves-which all other races have no access to, due to their stand-offish nature) and the Sher'tul have the ability to synergize Arcane and Natural forces.

You can make fluff excuses quite easily; You can't make them synergize with the present setting elements easily.

And expecting DarkGod to notably change his plot to fit your idea is...expecting a lot, to put it simply. It's much more reasonable to change your idea to fit his plot. But in this case, the concept basically can't be worked without changing basic setting concepts, so you need a different flavor.

It's not about me loving it; It's about DarkGod loving it, and it is his game.

[Rufferto1]

How about something more along this line:

TL1: add <same type> damage to weapon when a rune is on cooldown. Adds damage type equivalent to rune on cooldown, with non-damage types treated as arcane.

TL2: add resist <type> when rune on cooldown.

TL3: add damage penetration <type> , to weapon when rune on cooldown.

TL4: add burst damage <type> to weapon when on cooldown.

This would get around benefitting mages more and would incentivise it for non-casters. I have not put damage amounts as do not know enough about damage scaling etc. This would also make you want to use those runes that you may not already.

[Doctornull]

I was referring to how Antimagic generates disadvantages as well as advantages, which partially balances Fungus.

Ah gotcha, thanks for explaining.
I had the feeling we were talking past each other for a bit there.

Infusions are Nature constructs, Runes are Arcane constructs, and making Arcane and Natural forces synergize is specifically lost knowledge that Angolwen specifically does not have.

Angolwen does sell Infusions as well as Runes, so they've got more Infusion knowledge than the Shalore.

It is a major thematic thing that only a few obscure tribes(like Dwarves-which all other races have no access to, due to their stand-offish nature) and the Sher'tul have the ability to synergize Arcane and Natural forces.

"We have lost so much knowledge... this is the best we can currently do with Arcanorganic Synthesis. It's pitiful compared to the achievements of the Sher'tul, and it requires a living being to interface between the Arcane and Natural elements, but it's all we've got."

And expecting DarkGod to notably change his plot to fit your idea is...

unnecessary, is what it is.

As you've pointed out, Dwarves are doing it right now, and I've killed plenty of Adventurers who showed both Wild-Gift and Arcane sustains.

It's not about me loving it; It's about DarkGod loving it, and it is his game.

DarkGod is hereby formally invited to chime in.

How about something more along this line:

TL1: add <same type> damage to weapon when a rune is on cooldown. Adds damage type equivalent to rune on cooldown, with non-damage types treated as arcane.

TL2: add resist <type> when rune on cooldown.

TL3: add damage penetration <type> , to weapon when rune on cooldown.

TL4: add burst damage <type> to weapon when on cooldown.

This would get around benefitting mages more and would incentivise it for non-casters. I have not put damage amounts as do not know enough about damage scaling etc. This would also make you want to use those runes that you may not already.

I like the idea of adding to weapon damage; in particular, very few things seem to add to ranged weapon damage, so that might create a neat new niche. (Archers currently have less need of attack Runes since they ought to have plenty of options for ranged attacks.)

--

After playing around a bit with Runes, it seems to me that casters do need some kind of incentive to use them, but buffing their spell's element penetration isn't that helpful, since they usually have that covered by their unlock tree.

Also, my proposal neglects to buff Invisibility Runes and Insidious Poison Infusions, both of which could use some love. Ideas?

[HousePet]

I thought Insidious Poison was good now with the magic debuff cure on it.
Makes it useful against mages and those bloody regen tanks...

[Rufferto1]

I do think that one of the talents should give you: no time/action lost for using a rune that fails (normally phase door/teleport).

Other things that may be interesting: when a rune is used that gets rid of an effect, instead transfer that effect to nearest bad guy. This could be scaled two ways, increasing the number of bad guys affected, or increasing range for transfer.

For vision runes, could add trap detection/disarm (similar to cunning/survival?) which scales with talent level to disarm traps.

Invis could get decreased damage reduction, but that could be powerful.

The problem seems to be that the movement and shield runes work well already but the others can be lackluster. Need to increase the potency of the others without affecting those two categories much.

An alternative would be to enable something similar to stone alchemy, which instead would allow you to attach a rune to a weapon, without it costing an inscription slot.

[Doctornull]

I do think that one of the talents should give you: no time/action lost for using a rune that fails (normally phase door/teleport).

IMHO some of this ought to be solved at the UI level -- just don't let someone use Teleport in an area which is too small to allow the teleport to happen. Surviving the Orc Ambush and Orc Patrol ambushes is what makes me prioritize Phase Door 4 / Teleport 1 over PD 1 / TP 4.

Other things that may be interesting: when a rune is used that gets rid of an effect, instead transfer that effect to nearest bad guy. This could be scaled two ways, increasing the number of bad guys affected, or increasing range for transfer.

That's a very cool idea. Sounds non-trivial to code, though...
Maybe limit it to the badguys in your attack beam?

Invis could get decreased damage reduction, but that could be powerful.

Yeah, I don't use Invisibility much so I can't critique this, but it looks to me like the damage reduction is a big limiting factor as to why Invisible people don't kill me more often.

The problem seems to be that the movement and shield runes work well already but the others can be lackluster. Need to increase the potency of the others without affecting those two categories much.

Movement Infusions are already buffed by two Prodigies, one of which is an absolute no-brainer for those with the Fungus tree.

Hmm, maybe we ought to move the Silence immunity thing into a Rune-centric Prodigy.

An alternative would be to enable something similar to stone alchemy, which instead would allow you to attach a rune to a weapon, without it costing an inscription slot.

Hmm.

Maybe allow you to add a Gem to your Rune, and get the alchemical bomb bonus when you use the Rune? +30 Arcane damage isn't terrible for a 150-damage midgame attack rune, and the ones which give back Mana or %Life might make for interesting strategic elements.

[HousePet]

Invisibility runes are for escape, maybe an evasion bonus would be more useful than reducing the damage penalty on them.

[Doctornull]

Invisibility runes are for escape, maybe an evasion bonus would be more useful than reducing the damage penalty on them.

That's a great idea, thanks!

[Hachem_Muche]

They already have an evasion-like bonus. If the attacker can't see an invisible defender, it only has 1/3 the normal chance to hit.